[b] An interesting discussion evolved into an argument between Ausar and I over the morality of legality. My claim is that all legality is based on morality and his claim being that they are separate entities. Neither of us expected the conversation to be as prolonged as it and anyone with the stamina to suffer though it all can post any comments they have afterwords.


22:18:34 <Ausar> agree with them, or they threaten ultimate suffering
22:18:39 <Wolf> Anime Channel X
22:18:39 <Vikki> i dont recall ever making any threats to anyone to get them to agree with me about Christianity
22:18:41 <Knot4Prophet> i seen another person with that the other day
22:18:42 <Knot4Prophet> oic
22:18:45 <Knot4Prophet> hi shadow
22:18:49 <Ausar> and everybody that isn't a christian is supposed to tolerate that
22:18:52 <Wolf> Spitfire: Beieve or go to hell
22:18:53 <Ausar> tolerate their terrorism
22:19:02 <Vikki> those arent threats
22:19:08 <Wolf> *Believe
22:19:08 <Vikki> and they arent my words
22:19:12 <Wolf> I disagree, it is a threat
22:19:15 <Knot4Prophet> hell is a gun to ur head
22:19:19 <Ausar> yes
22:19:21 <Knot4Prophet> do this or else
22:19:23 <Wolf> And, do you believe that fiction writers are by trade sinners?
22:19:28 <Ausar> the bigggest gun possible
22:19:31 <Knot4Prophet> aye
22:19:38 <Vikki> so if your Dad tells you to do something or this or that is the consequence, is that a threat?
22:19:38 <Knot4Prophet> the eternal one
22:19:40 <Knot4Prophet> lol
22:19:43 <Ausar> in fact, it is immoral
22:19:50 <Ausar> christianity is immoral
22:19:50 <Mx> ultimate terrorism
22:19:51 <Wolf> Yeah.
22:19:54 <Vikki> if the police says, obey the speed laws or else,, is that a threat?
22:19:58 <Vikki> no,, its a fact
22:20:00 <Ausar> yeah
22:20:00 <Knot4Prophet> if ur dad says i'll fucking kill u if dont do this, yes that's a threat
22:20:03 <Ausar> its a threat
22:20:03 <Wolf> Yeah, it's a threat.
22:20:05 <Vikki> actions bring consequences
22:20:09 <Vikki> period
22:20:15 <Wolf> Threats are generally facts
22:20:19 <Mx> almost the same thing the US gov is using now with mid-eastern terrorist
22:20:22 <Vikki> you people just have trouble with authority
22:20:23 <Knot4Prophet> i speed all the time and have never had a speeding ticket
22:20:26 <Ausar> hahaha
22:20:29 <Vikki> and thats not my problem
22:20:32 <Vikki> its yours
22:20:34 <fuqrot> "you people"
22:20:39 <Vikki> unbelievers
22:20:40 <Ausar> whatever, terrorist
22:20:41 <Vikki> ok?
22:20:42 <Vikki> better?
22:20:43 <Wolf> Yeah, that's it, I don't believe in an invisible man who tells me not to fap because I have a problem with authority
22:20:46 <Knot4Prophet> i dont follow every law just cuz its a law
22:20:47 <Ausar> you're a terrorist
22:20:51 <Ausar> and you support terrorism
22:20:53 <Knot4Prophet> i do what's right
22:21:13 <Vikki> talk about fantasy
22:21:16 <Ausar> and if your terrorism is threatened, you cry that you're being oppressed
22:21:30 <Vikki> oh nutty, you nutty thing, i have never done any of that
22:21:34 <Wolf> Spits, do you follow every law?
22:21:36 <Vikki> you need to find another arguement
22:21:39 <Knot4Prophet> drug laws are not the same from country to country, so who is right? us or them? surely both cant be
22:21:42 <Mx> lol, doesn't take long for christians to come out of the woodwork eh?
22:21:52 <Wolf> Aye, Shadow
22:21:53 <Amazing_Spirit> lol
22:21:54 <Ausar> terrorists
22:22:18 <Vikki> wow,, im oppressed you are calling me names
22:22:18 <Ausar> the basic principle is terror. do as it says in this book, or face ultimate terror
22:22:21 <Mx> it's like they feel 'threatened'
22:22:25 <Wolf> You shouldn't follow laws because they're laws, you should follow laws because they're right.
22:22:33 <Vikki> right
22:22:42 <Knot4Prophet> aye wolf
22:22:58 /UNA/Rev.Wolf eats some shrimp.
22:23:04 <Wolf> D'you see what I'm getting at here?
22:23:08 <Mx> it doesnt take a christian to be moral
22:23:13 <Knot4Prophet> exactly
22:23:14 <Vikki> pass me some of that shrimp
22:23:18 <Amazing_Spirit> threatened?
22:23:22 <Wolf> Are you sure? It's a sin.
22:23:23 <Ausar> questions about what si right and wrong are questions about morality. confusing laws for morality is not really the best thing to do
22:23:27 <Vikki> who said it does mx?
22:23:34 <Vikki> define moral
22:23:45 <Knot4Prophet> laws are about morality, about what is right and wrong, by consensus
22:23:54 <Knot4Prophet> sometimes they are effective, sometimes they arent
22:24:01 <Knot4Prophet> at what they set out to do
22:24:08 <Vikki> come on,, you cannot legislate morality knot
22:24:10 <Ausar> i'm not sure our laws are based on right and wrong
22:24:20 <Knot4Prophet> murder is wrong
22:24:21 <Ausar> they are more based on rights
22:24:22 <Knot4Prophet> we all know it
22:24:25 <Knot4Prophet> instinctively
22:24:30 <Knot4Prophet> the worst crime is murder
22:24:33 <Knot4Prophet> in the "law"
22:24:38 <Knot4Prophet> law is about right and wrong
22:24:39 <Knot4Prophet> period
22:24:40 <Vikki> instintively,, most people would murder given the right circumstances
22:24:41 <Ausar> murder isn't illegal because it is wrong
22:24:42 <Mx> one shouldnt have to legislate morality nor preach about it
22:24:53 <Ausar> it is illegal because it violates another's rights
22:24:58 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl would not murder
22:25:00 <Ausar> rights that are protected by law
22:25:01 <Knot4Prophet> prove that, vik
22:25:08 <Vikki> if you think the worst crime is murder,, ask a child who has been raped by an adult,, they would rather be dead
22:25:12 <Vikki> i dont have to
22:25:17 <Ausar> heh
22:25:29 <Knot4Prophet> in the eyes of the law and the ten commandments, murder is worse than what u said
22:25:30 <Mx> yeah, like the ones molested by a priest
22:25:34 <Amazing_Spirit>
22:25:35 <Vikki> no its not
22:25:48 <Knot4Prophet> in the eyes of the law and the ten commandments it is
22:25:55 <Vikki> only in the eyes of man
22:26:08 <Vikki> is it?
22:26:08 <Knot4Prophet> who wrote ur ten commandments?
22:26:14 <Knot4Prophet> man?
22:26:16 <Vikki> ive known murderers to get off with less than some pedophiles
22:26:22 <Vikki> get real
22:26:23 <wainemaine> murder is taking a life, child rape is taking innocence
22:26:26 <Knot4Prophet> the legal system is based on noahdic law
22:26:32 <Vikki> and i stand by you cannot legislate morality
22:26:41 <Knot4Prophet> that's just a catchphrase
22:26:45 milestone777_58698 (Cable 0 files) has entered
22:26:46 <Knot4Prophet> u dont even understand what it means
22:26:47 <Mx> so, murdering an animal for sport isnt as bad as murdering another human?
22:26:47 <Vikki> then catch it
22:26:50 <Wolf> Spit, aren
22:26:50 <Amazing_Spirit> hi miles
22:26:53 <fuqrot> nor do you need to, Spit
22:26:56 <milestone> hi
22:26:56 <Wolf> 't you the one who wanted to ban gay marriage?
22:27:02 <Wolf> Namaste, Miles
22:27:07 <Knot4Prophet> it applies to purely moral issues, like prostitution, which will never go away
22:27:10 <milestone> hello wolf
22:27:15 <Knot4Prophet> u can legislate whatever u want
22:27:16 <Vikki> i rest my case
22:27:20 <Knot4Prophet> doesnt mean ppl will obey
22:27:25 <Knot4Prophet> is what that catchphrase means
22:27:28 <Knot4Prophet> u fucking idiot
22:27:36 <Vikki> if we could legislate morality,, prositutes would be out of busines and so would abortion doctors
22:27:42 <Ausar> eternal punishment is the greatest threat there is. it does not make sense to say that xians are moral. they are merely trying to stay out of hell. also, xians cannot have any moral principles since they believe that god created everything and therefore everything is subjective to god's will. including moralty. god could decide tomorrow that murder is good.
22:27:44 <Knot4Prophet> ppl already know not to kill, by and large
22:27:53 <Knot4Prophet> we dont need the law to tell us that
22:27:57 <wainemaine> well killing a dog pisses pploff, killing a rat or a snake is ok tho
22:27:58 <Ausar> if a xian is moral, she is moral IN SPITE of their religion. not because of it
22:28:04 <Wolf> Abortion clinics are the only med facilities in America with firebombing drills
22:28:05 <Knot4Prophet> is it 'wrong' to speed? thats ambiguous
22:28:18 <Vikki> yes and that too is wrong wolf
22:28:23 <Vikki> two wrongs dont make a right
22:28:34 <Wolf> It's wrong that they have firebombing drills, or wrong that they need to have firebombing drills?
22:28:34 <Vikki> but dont tell me you can legislate morality and that laws are all moral
22:28:41 <Vikki> wrong that they need them
22:28:56 <Knot4Prophet> laws are about right and wrong
22:28:59 <Knot4Prophet> that's y they exist
22:29:02 <Ausar> not here
22:29:11 <Vikki> i have no more use for an abortion clinic bomber than i do an abortion performing dr
22:29:16 <Vikki> both are wrong
22:29:17 <Ausar> in the US, the legal system is about rights and freedoms
22:29:28 <fuqrot> must be nice to be able to align yourself with a theology when you want and reject it when you don't
22:29:30 <Knot4Prophet> that's just saying the same thing in a different way
22:29:39 <Knot4Prophet> is it 'wrong' to infringe another's freedoms?
22:29:40 <Wolf> Eh? If the need is there, they should have firebomb drills, I think
22:29:43 <Ausar> whereever that may parallel one's moral principles is a coincidence
22:29:51 <Knot4Prophet> the right/wrongness never goes away
22:29:53 <Knot4Prophet> its in there
22:30:06 <Vikki> well gee wolf, i didnt say it was wrong for them to have them,, just to need them,, try to keep up
22:30:15 <Vikki> you need a program?
22:30:24 <Knot4Prophet> if we have 'rights' then taking them away would be 'wrongs'
22:30:28 <Wolf> You said both
22:30:36 <wainemaine> speeding isn't techinically a crime, its against a statute, but theres no victim, and no damage, so its a law for potential crimes, but wwhen you sign the lic, you say its ok, to be accused of a potential crime, you gave up a right
22:30:38 <Vikki> where?
22:30:47 <Wolf> Oh
22:30:48 <Knot4Prophet> aye wayne
22:30:49 <Wolf> Sorry
22:30:53 <Wolf> I misinterpreted your statement
22:31:03 <Knot4Prophet> victimless crime, like personal drug use
22:31:04 <Vikki> wow,, two apologies in two days.. you are getting mellow
22:31:10 <Ausar> are laws aren't based on it being right or wrong to infringe anothers rights. we have a set of rights we believe all people should have, if you agree then you can join us and we have a system to protect those rules. but there is no claim to morality anywhere
22:31:10 <Wolf> heh
22:31:12 <Vikki> apology accepted : )
22:31:38 <Knot4Prophet> if u agree we have rights then u agree its wrong for some to not have those rights, like the right to breathe
22:31:42 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot take out the wrong
22:31:45 <Ausar> semantics
22:31:51 <Wolf> Spits, as a gent I should apologize when I'm wrong or have overstepped my authority, or have upset others unnessecarily
22:31:53 <Knot4Prophet> i could say the same to u
22:31:57 <Vikki> like murdered unborn babies?
22:31:58 /UNA/Rev.Wolf shrugs
22:32:02 <Vikki> they dont have the right to breathe
22:32:08 <Knot4Prophet> laws are put in place to deter 'wrong' whatever society decides is 'wrong'
22:32:14 <Vikki> they dont even get the chance
22:32:17 <Ausar> however it works in canada is how it works there
22:32:26 <Mx> key word Spit, unborn
22:32:29 <Knot4Prophet> its the same for every legal system everywhere
22:32:32 <Wolf> Spits: Technically, it's not murder.
22:32:34 <Ausar> here, it isn't based on morals
22:32:37 <Vikki> unborn doent equal dead
22:32:40 <Ausar> its laws
22:32:43 <Amazing_Spirit> oh they did that in germany many years ago
22:32:46 <Wolf> Murder is specified as the illegal taking of human life.
22:32:51 <Knot4Prophet> is sex allowed on primetime tv?
22:32:55 <Wolf> Abortion, being legal, is therefore not murder.
22:32:58 <Knot4Prophet> what's the fcc say to that?
22:33:00 <Ausar> yes
22:33:09 <Wolf> Knot: Fuck the FCC!
22:33:10 <Knot4Prophet> nope it isnt and hasnt been for a long time
22:33:11 <Vikki> if thats the case then executions are legal and not murder
22:33:20 <Vikki> and yo usupport the death penalty
22:33:21 <Wolf> In states where they're legal, yes
22:33:25 <Ausar> the FCC goes by complaints
22:33:27 <Mx> what FCC?
22:33:29 <Wolf> Tsk, it doesn't mean I support it
22:33:38 <Vikki> then you didnt mean what you said
22:33:46 <wainemaine> with all the miscarriages , god is the biggest baby killer of all , if you think babies begin at conception
22:33:46 <Knot4Prophet> and the law says they can apply fines
22:33:49 <Knot4Prophet> as a deterrent
22:33:52 <Mx> its owned by a corporation now, like the government
22:33:56 <Wolf> I don't support everything that isn't murder
22:33:56 <Vikki> oh good grief waine
22:33:59 <Vikki> that is so lame
22:34:07 <wainemaine> why, its true
22:34:09 <Ausar> you can say shit fuck at 2pm on a wednesday if you want to on tv. if nobody complains, the FCC will not do anythng aout it
22:34:22 <Vikki> thats like saying with all the auto accidents in which people die, God is the biggest killer
22:34:26 <Vikki> geez
22:34:35 <wainemaine> nope cars kill too
22:34:35 <Ausar> god is the most prolific abortionist ever
22:34:45 <Ausar> god loves abortion
22:34:52 <Vikki> if that were true, many here wouldnt be here
22:34:56 <Mx> lol nutty
22:34:56 <Ausar> so abortion isn't wrong
22:35:03 <Knot4Prophet> i've never heard 'cunt' on any regular network program in my life, but i've seen it bleeped out lots
22:35:06 <Vikki> i know now why you have your name
22:35:07 <Wolf> And Spits: I don't support the death penalty for a variety of reasons, "it's murder!" not being one of them
22:35:14 <Ausar> you live in canada, knot
22:35:24 <Knot4Prophet> i watch 80% american tv
22:35:33 <Knot4Prophet> slmost exclusively
22:35:45 <Ausar> but it is in canda
22:35:57 <Ausar> so the FCC is not jurisdiction
22:35:58 <Knot4Prophet> on aerials picking up detroit stations?
22:36:25 <Knot4Prophet> my entire life
22:36:31 <Ausar> i'm telling you, the only reason Oprah isn't saying "cunt" is because she doesn't want to offend people.
22:36:35 <wainemaine> hehe aerials
22:36:37 <Ausar> not because it is illegal
22:36:39 <Mx> Nutty, feel blessed you are in canada
22:36:47 <Ausar> i'm not in canada
22:37:05 <Mx> oops, my mistake
22:37:15 <Ausar> the fcc won't do anything about airing cunt on tv unless a certain amount of people complain about it
22:37:23 <Knot4Prophet> The United States has constitutional protection for freedom of speech, which is not interpreted to protect every utterance. The Supreme Court has found that, when used in the context of the First Amendment, the word "obscenity" is usually limited to content that directly refers to explicit sexual acts that are publicly accessible, though it has at times encompassed other subject matters, such as
22:37:38 <Mx> so what makes a 'cuss word' anyway?
22:37:38 <Knot4Prophet> such as spoken and written language that can be publicly transmitted and received by the general public.
22:37:51 <Knot4Prophet> there is restriction
22:37:53 <Knot4Prophet> legally
22:38:01 <wainemaine> ask howard stern
22:38:04 <Knot4Prophet> aye
22:38:10 <Ausar> exactly, ask him
22:38:19 <Ausar> the fcc won't do anything about airing cunt on tv unless a certain amount of people complain about it
22:38:21 <wainemaine> i think its up to 100K or more per infraction
22:38:39 <Knot4Prophet> and the fcc has a legal right to levy fines
22:38:45 <Ausar> stern got fined for talking about sex the same week oprah talked about teenage girls having anal sex
22:38:48 <Knot4Prophet> for the 'wrongness' of obscenity
22:38:52 <Ausar> oprah didn't get fined becuase nobody complained
22:39:17 <Ausar> the fcc will not issue any fine unless there are a certain amount of complaints
22:39:25 <wainemaine> but orca winfrey was doing it as an educational event, like jerry springer lol
22:39:30 <Knot4Prophet> the fact that they can means its based on law
22:39:37 <Ausar> they'll fine you if your broadcasting levels are illegal. they don't need complaints for that
22:39:40 <Knot4Prophet> fines are a big deterrent
22:39:59 <wainemaine> thats because bandwith is expensive ausar
22:40:03 <Ausar> you can't lose your broadcasting license for saying cunt on the air
22:40:24 <Knot4Prophet> i didnt say lose license, i said restricted legally
22:40:28 <Ausar> you can get fines, if there are complaints. but you can say cunt everyday if you got the money for the fine
22:40:45 <Mx> obscenity is usually down to local opinion of the subject matter
22:41:02 <fuqrot> didn't this start as punishment as a deterent?
22:41:03 <Ausar> if it were simply illegal, then they'd fine every instance, regardless of complaint
22:41:08 <fuqrot> fines are punishment
22:41:10 <fuqrot> .
22:41:17 <Knot4Prophet> In fact, federal obscenity law in the U.S. is highly unusual in that—not only is there no uniform national standard, but rather, there is an explicit legal precedent (the "Miller test", below) that all but guarantees that something that is legally "obscene" in one jurisdiction may not be in another.
22:41:22 <Ausar> its not like you only get speeding tickets because somebody complained
22:41:32 <wainemaine> well it still takes a witness to levy a fine
22:41:36 <Ausar> you get speeding tickets for speeding
22:41:45 <Ausar> period
22:41:48 <Knot4Prophet> In effect, the First Amendment protections of free speech vary by location within the U.S., and over time. With the advent of Internet distribution of potentially obscene material, this question of jurisdiction and "community standards" has created significant controversy in the legal community. (See United States v. Thomas, 74 F.3d 701 (6th Cir. 1996))
22:41:53 <fuqrot> you get speeding tickets for getting caught speeding
22:41:56 <wainemaine> yes and the cop adthe radar detector are the witnesses
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22:42:09 <fuqrot> you get fined by the FCC for getting ratted on
22:42:15 <Ausar> there could be 1.6 million witnesses to the cunt though
22:42:18 <fuqrot> same difference
22:42:38 <fuqrot> just two different means of getting caught
22:42:45 <Ausar> you could write a letter to the fcc congratulating them for not fining stern about cunt, and they would do nothing
22:42:49 <Ausar> you can tell them he said it
22:42:57 <fuqrot> i think you are just enjoying typing cunt
22:42:57 †T†Spitfire777_34764 has left
22:43:06 <Ausar> i could type retard if you like
22:43:07 <Mx> well, what if we changed 'cunt' to pussy or vagina, still obscene then?
22:43:09 <fuqrot> and now i know why
22:43:12 <fuqrot> oooooo
22:43:39 <Mx> lol fuqrot
22:43:52 <fuqrot> dude, you know how close i came to playing the retard card a while ago?
22:43:53 <Ausar> the fcc only takes action for complaints
22:43:58 <Ausar> heh
22:43:59 <Knot4Prophet> lol fuq
22:44:09 <fuqrot> my tongue is still bleeding
22:44:10 <Ausar> i did, but deleted it before i posted whatever i was saying
22:44:34 <Mx> one less xtian in the room .....
22:44:51 <Amazing_Spirit> is that good or bad?
22:44:56 <fuqrot> would rather you could say that and she stayed
22:45:04 <Ausar> less terrorists is better than more terrorists
22:45:08 <fuqrot> yes, Amaz
22:45:14 <fuqrot> its good or bad
22:45:22 <Amazing_Spirit> lol
22:45:26 <Amazing_Spirit> ok
22:45:31 <Mx>
22:46:26 <Ausar> the fcc is retarded about how they go about that shit though
22:46:35 <Ausar> it is illogical to only go on complaints
22:47:01 <Knot4Prophet> nonetheless, u show me a law and i'll show u the 'wrongness' its trying to deter
22:47:06 <Ausar> but obscenity is difficunt to regulate
22:47:14 <Ausar> stern can't talk about anal sex, but oprah can
22:47:40 <Ausar> you might see some coincidental moral parallel
22:47:58 <Ausar> i'm not denying that, since people have different morals. maybe you think speeding is immoral
22:48:10 <Mx> could be a minority thing...
22:48:26 <Ausar> but the legal system doesnt portend to legislate morality
22:49:07 <Knot4Prophet> http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-you-cann ... rality.htm
22:49:14 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
22:49:20 <Ausar> bible dot com
22:49:24 <Knot4Prophet> .ca
22:49:26 <Knot4Prophet>
22:49:56 <Knot4Prophet> thats more for vikki than for u
22:50:03 <Knot4Prophet> but the result is the same
22:50:13 <Ausar> laws have to have a legal basis. maybe you want a law that would be moral, but it can't be passed or upheld merely on the strength that you believe it is moral
22:50:17 <Ausar> it must be legal
22:50:19 <Mx> what are laws based on?
22:50:30 <Ausar> precedents and other laws
22:50:32 <Ausar> and rights
22:50:34 <Ausar> constitution
22:50:58 <Mx> the constitution has been torn to shreds
22:51:22 <Ausar> it starts with the constitution, but 200 years later there are so many laws that its like a house of cards. they are built on each other.
22:51:28 <Amazing_Spirit> well gentlemen, another christian must leave you now,,,,, old ladies must get their rest its been nice and interesting to say the least
22:51:35 <Ausar> if the new law isn't supported by other laws, it will be tossed out
22:51:36 <Knot4Prophet> cya amazing
22:51:39 <Knot4Prophet> nice chattin
22:51:40 <Amazing_Spirit> ciao for now
22:51:49 <Amazing_Spirit> ty
22:51:52 <fuqrot> horus bless!
22:51:52 Amazing_Spirit777_55835 has left
22:51:58 <Knot4Prophet> the constitution is what frames 'right' and 'wrong' to begin with
22:52:04 <Mx> lol fuq
22:52:05 <Knot4Prophet> and the bill of rights
22:52:06 <Ausar> heh
22:52:25 <Ausar> you're conflating "legal right" with "moral right"
22:52:35 <Mx> morals...
22:52:37 <Knot4Prophet> all laws have a moral seed, is all im saying
22:52:42 <Knot4Prophet> show me a law that doesnt
22:52:59 <Ausar> um, you are the one that has to show that they do
22:53:01 <Knot4Prophet> based on what is right, and what is wrong
22:53:06 <Knot4Prophet> i already did for murder
22:53:11 <Knot4Prophet> we have a right to live
22:53:14 <Knot4Prophet> so its wrong to be killed
22:53:16 <Knot4Prophet> conversely
22:53:18 <Ausar> i was talking shit to somebody else at the time
22:53:21 <Knot4Prophet> the law supports that
22:53:22 <Mx> a good person really shouldnt need laws or a bible to know whats morally right
22:53:29 <Ausar> we have a legal right to live
22:53:29 <Ausar> LEGAL
22:53:39 <Knot4Prophet> based on what?
22:53:42 <Knot4Prophet> morality
22:53:45 <Ausar> where?
22:53:49 <Knot4Prophet> based on what then?
22:53:52 <Ausar> prove that that is based on morality
22:53:55 <Knot4Prophet> where do we get this right to live?
22:54:08 <Ausar> show me where it says anywhere in US law that murder is based on morality
22:54:11 <Knot4Prophet> just sounded good on paper?
22:54:20 <Knot4Prophet> i never said the legal system claims it is
22:54:31 <Ausar> you're saying its based on morality. show me the US code or law or whereever that cites morality
22:54:41 <Knot4Prophet> im saying laws are based on morality, ie right and wrong
22:54:48 <Ausar> show and prove
22:54:49 <Knot4Prophet> murder = wrong
22:54:51 <Mx> US law is heavily hinged on xtian laws
22:54:53 <Knot4Prophet> i just did
22:54:58 <Ausar> omg
22:54:59 <Knot4Prophet> all cultures say murder is wrong
22:55:10 <Knot4Prophet> and the legal systems relfect that
22:55:10 <Ausar> that means murder IS wrong?
22:55:21 <Knot4Prophet> so there is no morality?
22:55:29 <Knot4Prophet> just legalese/
22:55:30 <Knot4Prophet> ?
22:55:31 <Knot4Prophet> lol
22:55:33 <Ausar> so morality is consentual?
22:55:39 <Knot4Prophet> what is the law against murder based upon?
22:55:42 <Knot4Prophet> if not morality?
22:55:51 <Ausar> our right to liberty and the pursuit of bhappiness etc
22:55:59 <Ausar> as stated in our legal documents
22:56:01 <Knot4Prophet> and the wrongness of not having that?
22:56:09 <Ausar> i don't know if it is wrong or not
22:56:15 <Knot4Prophet> if that's "right" then the converse must be "wrong"
22:56:18 <Ausar> but it is illegal
22:56:23 <Knot4Prophet> legal just means code
22:56:27 <Knot4Prophet> code laid down
22:56:29 <Knot4Prophet> based on what?
22:56:34 <Knot4Prophet> morality.
22:56:35 <Ausar> again, you're conflating a "legal right" with "moral right"
22:56:47 <Knot4Prophet> cuz they follow from morality
22:56:48 <Ausar> show that it is based on morality
22:56:52 <Knot4Prophet> im not confusing anything
22:57:11 <Knot4Prophet> by what measure could i show anything is based on morality that would suffice?
22:57:22 <Ausar> http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html
22:57:28 <Knot4Prophet> i'll use ur method, and apply it accordingly
22:57:31 <Ausar> the word "moral" does not appear anywhere in that page
22:57:37 <Knot4Prophet> i never said it did
22:57:42 <Knot4Prophet> its IMPLICIT
22:57:45 <Ausar> oooh
22:58:01 <Ausar> so this isn't even something you can substantuate
22:58:04 <Ausar> how convenient
22:58:10 <Knot4Prophet> if we have a right to exist does that not mean its "wrong" to not allow another to live?
22:58:25 <Knot4Prophet> does my right to live not extend to killing anyone?
22:58:27 <Knot4Prophet> why not?
22:58:30 <Knot4Prophet> based on what?
22:58:35 <Knot4Prophet> morality.
22:58:37 <Ausar> you're speaking in a philosophhical manner, where we are dealing in a legal context
22:58:51 <Knot4Prophet> no, im saying the legal system is in a moral context
22:59:02 <Knot4Prophet> or it wouldnt exist
22:59:36 <Ausar> some men took some time and sat down and came to agreements on some things to use as fundamental guidlines to build a nation
22:59:46 <Knot4Prophet> rights and wrongs, aye
22:59:50 <Knot4Prophet> fundamental wrongs
22:59:52 <Ausar> whether they thought those things were moral or not is irrelevent
22:59:58 <Knot4Prophet> ie not being able to have liberty
23:00:08 <Knot4Prophet> any right u have, has a converse 'wrong'
23:00:12 <Knot4Prophet> that's the morality of it
23:00:17 <Ausar> they coulda called them anything, that they happened to call them "rights" is happenstance
23:00:23 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
23:00:24 <Ausar> which you are using as a wedge
23:00:35 <Knot4Prophet> i dont think it was 'happenstance' at all
23:00:37 <Ausar> they could have called them "deservences"
23:00:46 <Knot4Prophet> it would still be based on morality
23:00:48 <Ausar> or whatever
23:00:59 <Knot4Prophet> how do we determine what we have a 'right' to?
23:01:02 <Knot4Prophet> how did they?
23:01:05 <Knot4Prophet> morality.
23:01:14 <Knot4Prophet> their own collective agreed upon morality
23:01:21 <Ausar> they met and talked about it several times
23:01:25 <Ausar> wrote each other letters
23:01:29 <Ausar> came to an agreement
23:01:32 <Knot4Prophet> what is right and what is wrong, aye
23:01:44 <Wolf> Dio serpente
23:01:48 <Knot4Prophet> and what is right, they made inalienable
23:01:49 <Ausar> what is agreeable so what should apply to the citizens
23:01:56 <Ausar> *to
23:02:00 <Ausar> not "so"
23:02:04 <Knot4Prophet> which means not having that right, is 'wrong' implicitly
23:02:10 <Knot4Prophet> agreeable about what?
23:02:16 <Knot4Prophet> laws that apply to what?
23:02:20 <Knot4Prophet> morality.
23:02:21 <Ausar> people
23:02:23 <Knot4Prophet> right vs wrong
23:02:41 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot separate legality from morality, whatsoever
23:02:59 <Knot4Prophet> legality is enforced morality
23:03:07 <Ausar> i disagree. and conversely would say that you cannot marry morality to legality completely
23:03:35 <Knot4Prophet> k well when u can show me a law that has no 'right' or 'wrong' ill agree
23:03:46 <Mx> i agree speeding really isnt a moral issue
23:03:50 <Ausar> you might be able to maintain a few interesting corelations
23:03:53 <Knot4Prophet> speeding kills ppl
23:03:58 <Knot4Prophet> killing is wrong
23:04:01 <Mx> not always
23:04:02 <Knot4Prophet> speeding leads to more deaths
23:04:11 <Knot4Prophet> that's the scenario
23:04:14 <Knot4Prophet> that's the morality
23:04:15 <Ausar> you're the one that has to show that morality has anything at all to do with my countries legal system
23:04:28 <Knot4Prophet> i said it has to do with every legal system
23:04:31 <Knot4Prophet> every single law
23:04:31 <Ausar> a single legal document stating so would suffice
23:04:40 <Ausar> good luck with that
23:04:50 <Knot4Prophet> i never said ur legal systems claims to be moral
23:04:53 <Knot4Prophet> i said it is moral
23:05:04 <Knot4Prophet> a collective agreement on what is moral
23:05:06 <Knot4Prophet> and evolving
23:05:11 <Ausar> but there is no evidence in it's design attesting to that?
23:05:20 <Ausar> it is a collective agreement on what is legal
23:05:21 <Knot4Prophet> the 'rights'
23:05:37 <Knot4Prophet> are what is 'right' and the loss of those rights is 'wrong' conversely
23:05:44 <Knot4Prophet> so the morality is there from the outset
23:05:47 <Ausar> if those rights are moral, then why doesn't every nation have the same constitution as us?
23:05:58 <Knot4Prophet> how did they determine murder should be against the law?
23:06:04 <Ausar> you keep conflating "legal right" with "moral right"
23:06:12 <Knot4Prophet> no, im not confusing anything
23:06:16 <Knot4Prophet> im saying they are the same
23:06:21 <Ausar> in reference to legal rights, there is no "wrong" there is only "violations of rights"
23:06:22 <Mx> ours is only a lil over 200 years old compared to 1000's nutty
23:06:37 <Knot4Prophet> morality is as malleable as the legal system
23:06:52 <Ausar> a judge never says "you're going to jail because what you did is wrong." they say "what you did is illegal"
23:07:00 <Knot4Prophet> violation of right = wrong
23:07:06 <Ausar> oh
23:07:13 <Knot4Prophet> how can it be anything but?
23:07:17 <Knot4Prophet> what is it then?
23:07:20 <Ausar> but for some odd reason it is never ever ever ever ever stated as "wrong"
23:07:22 <Ausar> weird
23:07:22 <Knot4Prophet> it just is?
23:07:23 <Knot4Prophet> lol
23:07:25 <Ausar> isn't that weird?
23:07:36 <Knot4Prophet> wrong is a blanket word
23:07:42 <Ausar> isn't that weird that not a single legal document or court house utterance as ever used that word?
23:07:55 <Knot4Prophet> how did they determine murder shouldnt be allowed?
23:08:02 <Knot4Prophet> cuz its wrong
23:08:09 <Knot4Prophet> we know that instinctively
23:08:14 <Knot4Prophet> most everyone
23:08:15 <Ausar> because they established that citizens have the right to live
23:08:21 <Knot4Prophet> based on what?
23:08:26 <Ausar> violating that right is illegal
23:08:26 <Knot4Prophet> whims?
23:08:29 <Ausar> sure
23:08:31 <Mx> morals
23:08:32 <Knot4Prophet> haha
23:08:33 <Ausar> could be whims
23:08:37 <Knot4Prophet> or could be morality
23:08:39 <Ausar> could be they drew from a hat
23:08:43 <Knot4Prophet> i'd say im closer to the truth
23:08:46 <Knot4Prophet> than 'whims'
23:09:02 <Ausar> they coulda done some divination with throwing spaghetti noodles at a wall and conjuring spirits and shit
23:09:04 <Ausar> doesn't matter
23:09:10 <Knot4Prophet> they didnt
23:09:12 <Knot4Prophet> and it does matter
23:09:26 <Knot4Prophet> they didnt come to these rights/laws by mere chance
23:09:27 <Ausar> how'd the do it in canada?
23:09:29 <Knot4Prophet> noting random
23:09:40 <Knot4Prophet> the same way every other place does it
23:09:49 <Knot4Prophet> bills of rights preexisted the american one
23:09:52 <Knot4Prophet> several
23:09:59 <Knot4Prophet> habeas corpus
23:09:59 <Ausar> i'm sure the men came together and took a long time and a lot of comprimise in order to come to an agreement on them all
23:10:01 Mx Shadow583_64501 has left
23:10:14 <Ausar> i'm sure some had some moral shit they wanted in that didn't make it in
23:10:15 <Knot4Prophet> they agreed on what was 'right'
23:10:21 <Knot4Prophet> and what was then not right
23:10:48 <Wolf> Dio serpente.
23:11:54 <Knot4Prophet> if ur prepared to think the constitution and bills of rights are based on random whims or flights of fancy that have nothing to do with right and wrong, then i guess we'll never agree
23:12:35 <Ausar> the bill of rights looks more like a document designed to protect equality and sovereignty of te individual and his freedom (when i say 'his' i mean white male landowners who are christian)
23:12:47 <Knot4Prophet> because those things are 'right'
23:12:53 <Knot4Prophet> somehow
23:13:10 <Ausar> knot, you hae nothing to sunstantiate that it is based on morality. you assume it is, and then say "it's implied"
23:13:20 <Knot4Prophet> i said all legal systems
23:13:26 <Ausar> which in the first place is biased to your interpreation. apparently you have similar morals
23:13:36 <Knot4Prophet> and i said every law is associated with a 'wrong'
23:13:40 <Knot4Prophet> who thinks murder isnt wrong?
23:13:41 <Ausar> if you didn't, then you wouldn't be saying it is based on morality since then it would appear immoral to you
23:13:42 <Knot4Prophet> any of us?
23:13:51 <Knot4Prophet> u think murder isnt 'wrong'?
23:14:00 <Ausar> it is irrelevent if i do or don't
23:14:03 <Knot4Prophet> lol
23:14:05 <Knot4Prophet> no it isnt
23:14:10 <Knot4Prophet> u dont want to answer?
23:14:12 <Ausar> murder is illegal
23:14:16 <Knot4Prophet> is it wrong?
23:14:22 <Knot4Prophet> by ur own personal morality
23:14:29 <Ausar> i think it is wrong. that is my opinion.
23:14:31 <Knot4Prophet> it was by the ppl who made the laws, too
23:14:34 <Knot4Prophet> their morality
23:14:37 <Ausar> wrong in a moral sense
23:14:45 <Knot4Prophet> and now in a legal sense
23:14:46 <Knot4Prophet> aye
23:14:50 <Knot4Prophet> one flows from the other
23:14:53 <Ausar> coincidentally
23:15:00 <Knot4Prophet> naturally
23:15:52 <Knot4Prophet> when it isnt clear if something is 'wrong' then we have ambiguous morality and ambiguous laws across cultures
23:15:55 <Knot4Prophet> like drug laws
23:16:03 <Knot4Prophet> its not clear that drug use is 'wrong'
23:16:08 <Knot4Prophet> it is clear that murder is
23:16:14 <Knot4Prophet> and the laws reflect that
23:16:27 <Ausar> ok, drug laws. morally, it looks like the constitution and all that is designed to protect personal freedom, yet drug laws attact personal freedom. so do laws against sodomy and whatnot. explain the existence of those laws in a moral legal system
23:16:28 <Knot4Prophet> murder is illegal everwhere
23:16:30 <Knot4Prophet> drugs arent
23:16:53 <Knot4Prophet> cuz its personal morality of the ppl making the laws
23:17:05 <Knot4Prophet> and it doesnt always jive with consensus
23:17:09 <Knot4Prophet> murder does
23:17:17 <Knot4Prophet> when the consensus really doesnt agree, laws change
23:17:25 <Knot4Prophet> to reflect the new morality
23:17:30 <Knot4Prophet> or the actual morality
23:18:01 <Knot4Prophet> morality isnt static, neither is the legal system
23:18:26 <Knot4Prophet> so the degree to which there is agreement across cultures on a law
23:18:36 <Knot4Prophet> is the degree to which they are based on 'innate' morality
23:18:43 <Knot4Prophet> is my theory
23:18:47 <Ausar> butall we have to back that up is our interpretation that it appears some laws just happen to be in line with my particular moral code.
23:19:08 <Knot4Prophet> most laws are in line with most ppl's morality**
23:19:11 <Ausar> it looks moral, so it is
23:19:12 <Knot4Prophet> is how it works
23:19:16 <Knot4Prophet> and if it isnt, the laws change
23:19:22 <Ausar> things look designed too
23:19:26 <Ausar> so they are, right
23:19:46 <Knot4Prophet> i dont see why ur so adamant at exlcuding morality from legality
23:19:51 <Knot4Prophet> there is no basis to
23:20:01 <Knot4Prophet> i didnt intentionally include it
23:20:05 <Knot4Prophet> i studied it and found it there
23:20:17 <Ausar> there is no basis to think the oppsite
23:20:20 <Knot4Prophet> i dont feel i must separate them
23:20:23 <Ausar> i don't believe things without reasons
23:20:27 <Knot4Prophet> i'll go where the data takes me
23:20:43 <Knot4Prophet> yeah and the reason behind the constitution was morality
23:20:51 <Knot4Prophet> not for no reason
23:20:53 <Ausar> what reason do you have for believing hat?
23:20:56 <Ausar> that
23:21:08 <Knot4Prophet> cuz at the seed of what is right, is what is wrong
23:21:14 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot separate them
23:21:18 <Ausar>
23:21:21 <Ausar> conflate
23:21:26 <Knot4Prophet> if i have a right to live, it is wrong for u to kill me
23:21:39 <Ausar> you're doing equivocation
23:21:40 <Knot4Prophet> its not just illegal for no reason
23:21:47 <Knot4Prophet> u just cry that when u dont agree
23:21:50 <Ausar> as if the meaning in one sense spills over to another context
23:22:04 <Knot4Prophet> right to live is a 'right'
23:22:09 <Ausar> you're using two different senses of "right", knot
23:22:14 <Ausar> and saying they are the same
23:22:19 <Knot4Prophet> im saying they are the same
23:22:34 <Knot4Prophet> if its a 'right' it CANNOT be wrong
23:22:35 <Ausar> a right
23:22:37 <Knot4Prophet> implicitly
23:22:44 <Ausar> not "it is right"
23:22:45 <Knot4Prophet> show me a right that is 'wrong'
23:22:50 <Ausar> "a right"
23:22:53 <Knot4Prophet> on the bill of rights
23:23:03 <Knot4Prophet> show me one they might all agree was wrong
23:23:04 <Ausar> i could believe that any of the Rights are wrong
23:23:09 <Knot4Prophet> or that we might all agree is wrong
23:23:18 <Ausar> the first amendment has a claus many people think is wrong
23:23:34 <Ausar> clause
23:23:42 <Knot4Prophet> 9.an injustice: The wrongs they suffered aged them.
23:24:01 <Knot4Prophet> 10.Law.a.an invasion of another's right, to his damage.
23:24:07 <Knot4Prophet> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wrong
23:25:27 <Knot4Prophet> it has a legal definition
23:25:31 <Knot4Prophet> Unfair; unjust.
23:25:47 <Knot4Prophet> American Heritage Dictionary
23:25:52 <Knot4Prophet> for "wrong"
23:25:54 <Knot4Prophet>

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