An interesting discussion regarding the instiinctuality of morality came up in Debait recently, so I've included a log of the discussion, and added some final points at the end. Let me begin by saying that NO ONE can say with absolute certainty that morality is learned or instinctual. What we can do is look for and compare to human behaviours which are instinctual and derive from that a basis to extrapolate to other "moral" behaviours. The discussion began with Busta and Severus agreeing that all morality is learned.


05/08/08 02:39:29 <BUSTA> you are NOT born with morals or values
05/08/08 02:39:33 <BUSTA> you must learn both
05/08/08 02:39:37 <Severus379> of course
05/08/08 02:39:43 <BUSTA> they are simple things but you must be taught them
05/08/08 02:39:49 <Severus379> I know
05/08/08 02:39:52 <BUSTA> you can never BE EXSPECTED to know
05/08/08 02:39:59 <Severus379> of course not
05/08/08 02:40:16 <BUSTA> if you were born with morals and alues they wouldnt be so elastic across humans kind
05/08/08 02:40:31 <BUSTA> people make this mistake though
05/08/08 02:40:35 <BUSTA> they assume musch



* * *



05/08/08 04:35:26 <Knot4Prophet> and i saw u and busta talking bout how morality is learned earlier, and i disagree
05/08/08 04:35:42 <Knot4Prophet> the closer that morality aligns with pure survival, the more it is instinctual
05/08/08 04:35:50 <Severus379> I know you think that
05/08/08 04:35:57 <Knot4Prophet> i can prove it
05/08/08 04:36:02 <Severus379> I still think there is only one universal moral
05/08/08 04:36:08 <Severus379> incest taboo
05/08/08 04:36:18 <Knot4Prophet> death = wrong, survive = right
05/08/08 04:36:18 <Severus379> all the others are rather flexible
05/08/08 04:36:22 <Knot4Prophet> that's morality
05/08/08 04:36:28 <Severus379> no it isn't
05/08/08 04:36:29 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:36:30 <Knot4Prophet> yup
05/08/08 04:36:33 <Severus379> bit simple, that
05/08/08 04:36:37 <Knot4Prophet> all cultures agree about murder
05/08/08 04:36:45 <Knot4Prophet> they dont all agree about incest, to the same degree
05/08/08 04:36:59 <mickey572> what ?
05/08/08 04:37:04 <mickey572> incest ?
05/08/08 04:37:04 <Knot4Prophet> we all value life, cuz we're biological and main command to all biology = survive!
05/08/08 04:37:11 <mickey572> good grief
05/08/08 04:37:17 <Knot4Prophet> we have awareness, so we can identify with others
05/08/08 04:37:25 <Knot4Prophet> those are the requirements for instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:37:36 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 04:37:36 <Knot4Prophet> awareness, biology and the command: survive!
05/08/08 04:37:51 <Severus379> it's not as simple as that though
05/08/08 04:37:56 <Knot4Prophet> oh but it is
05/08/08 04:37:57 <Severus379> it's kinda raw
05/08/08 04:38:11 <Knot4Prophet> i've worked it from first principles
05/08/08 04:38:16 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 04:38:20 <Severus379> so have I
05/08/08 04:38:21 <Knot4Prophet> beginnging with a universe of one entity
05/08/08 04:38:25 <Knot4Prophet> and moving from there, to 2
05/08/08 04:38:28 <Knot4Prophet> when morality begins
05/08/08 04:38:40 <Severus379> when there are two
05/08/08 04:38:44 <Severus379> morality begins
05/08/08 04:38:47 <Knot4Prophet> if no one could kill/hurt anyone else, there would be no morality
05/08/08 04:38:49 <Knot4Prophet> right
05/08/08 04:38:58 <Severus379> or if no one WOULD
05/08/08 04:39:04 <Severus379> then we wouldn't know
05/08/08 04:39:08 <Knot4Prophet> so survival is a factor in morality
05/08/08 04:39:10 <Severus379> with killing, maybe
05/08/08 04:39:18 <Knot4Prophet> as are separate entities who live then die
05/08/08 04:39:19 <Severus379> survival is one factor, yes
05/08/08 04:39:31 <Severus379> but then, there is the altruistic suicide
05/08/08 04:39:35 <Severus379> highly moral
05/08/08 04:39:39 <Severus379> mass suicide
05/08/08 04:39:45 <Knot4Prophet> that's the basis for a soul
05/08/08 04:39:48 <Severus379> and they think they act upon moral
05/08/08 04:39:53 <Severus379> it isn't as easy
05/08/08 04:39:56 <Knot4Prophet> humans overcome biology's command to 'survive'
05/08/08 04:40:01 <Knot4Prophet> other biology doesn't
05/08/08 04:40:01 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 04:40:13 <Severus379> the definition of moral has also overcome that instinctt
05/08/08 04:40:16 <Severus379> just as humans have
05/08/08 04:40:18 <Severus379> simple
05/08/08 04:40:24 <Knot4Prophet> thats the basis for a "will" apart from the biology itself
05/08/08 04:40:31 <Knot4Prophet> which has its own will, "survive"
05/08/08 04:40:46 <BEAR> Just link her the essay
05/08/08 04:40:52 <V> Hey, Bear.
05/08/08 04:40:53 BEAR 999 just walked in
05/08/08 04:40:55 <BEAR> Hey, V
05/08/08 04:40:58 <Knot4Prophet> suicide sets the table for a will at cross purposes to biology
05/08/08 04:41:03 <BEAR> How ya doin, O.G?
05/08/08 04:41:10 <Knot4Prophet> for the feast of freedom?
05/08/08 04:41:14 <Knot4Prophet> stupid fucking metaphors
05/08/08 04:41:15 <BEAR> So no animals commit suicide?
05/08/08 04:41:18 <Knot4Prophet> rarely
05/08/08 04:41:19 <Relentless> bear!!!!!
05/08/08 04:41:21 <Knot4Prophet> not like we do
05/08/08 04:41:24 <BEAR> I disagree
05/08/08 04:41:26 <Severus379> QUOTE: humans overcome biology's command to 'survive' = humans can define moral in a way that has overcome this instinct
05/08/08 04:41:26 <Knot4Prophet> do u know of any?
05/08/08 04:41:28 <Knot4Prophet> list them
05/08/08 04:41:36 <BEAR> I've heard tell of animals that "give up"
05/08/08 04:41:49 <BEAR> Say when they are moved drastically or their owners perish
05/08/08 04:41:55 <BEAR> They stop eating
05/08/08 04:41:57 <Knot4Prophet> idk any that have
05/08/08 04:41:57 <Severus379> we are not talking animals
05/08/08 04:41:58 <BEAR> drinking
05/08/08 04:42:01 <Severus379> I was talking humans
05/08/08 04:42:02 <Knot4Prophet> not one
05/08/08 04:42:08 Relentless 258 is listening to Dancing DJs - Right Beside You
05/08/08 04:42:08 <Knot4Prophet> i just heard ppl say it, but idk any
05/08/08 04:42:13 <Severus379> yeah, and is that immoral?
05/08/08 04:42:13 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:42:14 <Knot4Prophet> i know tons of ppl that committed suicide
05/08/08 04:42:15 <Knot4Prophet> do u?
05/08/08 04:42:16 <BEAR> i heard tell
05/08/08 04:42:17 <Severus379> stopping to drink?
05/08/08 04:42:22 <Knot4Prophet> i know them personally, i mean
05/08/08 04:42:26 <BEAR> Not "tons" but yeah
05/08/08 04:42:28 <Severus379> I knew one
05/08/08 04:42:30 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:42:36 <Knot4Prophet> my godmother, in fact!
05/08/08 04:42:37 <V> Doing alright.
05/08/08 04:42:37 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:42:40 <BEAR> Good man
05/08/08 04:42:48 <Knot4Prophet> my fucking godmother committed suicide
05/08/08 04:42:49 <BEAR> How'd she go?
05/08/08 04:42:54 <Knot4Prophet> pills od'd
05/08/08 04:42:57 <BEAR> aye
05/08/08 04:42:58 <BEAR> fav.
05/08/08 04:42:59 <Knot4Prophet> left a note too, i believe
05/08/08 04:43:04 <BEAR> Wow.. bold
05/08/08 04:43:06 <Knot4Prophet> the details are murky
05/08/08 04:43:10 <BEAR> I dunno would you leave a note?
05/08/08 04:43:14 <Knot4Prophet> she was screwing around on husband with a black guy
05/08/08 04:43:16 <BEAR> I dunno if I would
05/08/08 04:43:21 <Knot4Prophet> and prolly wracked with guilt
05/08/08 04:43:22 <Knot4Prophet> idk
05/08/08 04:43:36 <BEAR> Oh hey I've been meaning to ask you, knot, about some documentaries
05/08/08 04:43:39 <Knot4Prophet> leave a note? nope
05/08/08 04:43:39 <BEAR> you a buff on them right?
05/08/08 04:43:40 <Severus379> was that immoral?
05/08/08 04:43:43 <Knot4Prophet> i wouldnt commit suicide
05/08/08 04:43:46 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:43:55 <BEAR> I figured you'd say that
05/08/08 04:43:57 <Knot4Prophet> was what immoral, sev?
05/08/08 04:44:03 <Severus379> is suicide immoral?
05/08/08 04:44:05 <BEAR> Suicide?
05/08/08 04:44:07 <BEAR> Hell no
05/08/08 04:44:08 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:44:14 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:44:17 <Knot4Prophet> i dont think it is, no
05/08/08 04:44:23 <BEAR> I am certain it's not.
05/08/08 04:44:25 <Severus379> that survive thing can't be the basis of morality
05/08/08 04:44:26 <Knot4Prophet> its not hurting anyone but the biology
05/08/08 04:44:31 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> morality isn't about you
05/08/08 04:44:37 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 04:44:46 <Knot4Prophet> survival/death cycle is necessary for morality to exist
05/08/08 04:44:52 <Severus379> it's something that a certain group has in common
05/08/08 04:44:57 <BEAR> Anyone here ever heard of the documentary "Esoteric Agendas"?
05/08/08 04:45:07 <Severus379> morality is now independant from survive/death
05/08/08 04:45:09 <Knot4Prophet> and i cant link to the essay yet bear, cuz its not complete
05/08/08 04:45:11 <Severus379> not completely
05/08/08 04:45:14 <Severus379> but to a degree
05/08/08 04:45:18 <BEAR> ic
05/08/08 04:45:31 <Severus379> so there is more to morality than survivaö
05/08/08 04:45:31 <Knot4Prophet> those are just social mores, less related to survival
05/08/08 04:45:33 <Severus379> you said it
05/08/08 04:45:35 <BEAR> Want me to finish it? hehehe
05/08/08 04:45:40 <Knot4Prophet> ambiguous morality, i call it
05/08/08 04:45:47 <Knot4Prophet> when we're not sure if its 'good' or 'bad'
05/08/08 04:45:49 <Knot4Prophet> like drug use
05/08/08 04:45:57 <BEAR> Well
05/08/08 04:46:04 <Knot4Prophet> look across cultures and u'll c that its not consistent
05/08/08 04:46:04 <BEAR> how much does the drug hurt your biology
05/08/08 04:46:10 <Knot4Prophet> its ambiguous
05/08/08 04:46:17 <Knot4Prophet> whether drugs are 'good' or 'bad'
05/08/08 04:46:18 <BEAR> IE smack vs. tylenol
05/08/08 04:46:19 <Knot4Prophet> not murder.
05/08/08 04:46:27 Relentless 258 is listening to Music-Bashy - We Got Links
05/08/08 04:46:31 <Knot4Prophet> we instinctively know that killing is wrong
05/08/08 04:46:35 <BEAR> Some do
05/08/08 04:46:39 <Severus379> well, in WW2 murder was considered "moral"
05/08/08 04:46:42 <Knot4Prophet> most, bear
05/08/08 04:46:44 <BEAR> Small percentage don't
05/08/08 04:46:48 <Knot4Prophet> im talking 99.9%
05/08/08 04:46:48 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it's not instinct
05/08/08 04:46:49 <Severus379> so it's not that either is it
05/08/08 04:46:52 <Knot4Prophet> i dont care bout the rest
05/08/08 04:46:59 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot prove its learned
05/08/08 04:47:00 <BEAR> well a mall fraction of a percentage don't
05/08/08 04:47:01 <BEAR> lol
05/08/08 04:47:06 <Severus379> this is not a probabilistic debate
05/08/08 04:47:06 <BEAR> *small
05/08/08 04:47:13 <Severus379> it cannot be
05/08/08 04:47:20 <BEAR> brb
05/08/08 04:47:21 <Severus379> it's deterministic
05/08/08 04:47:23 <BEAR> ren
05/08/08 04:47:25 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:47:26 <Severus379> ?
05/08/08 04:47:27 <BEAR> I would like you to know
05/08/08 04:47:32 <BEAR> I am about to take a massive shit
05/08/08 04:47:35 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:47:36 <BEAR> it may rip my asshole
05/08/08 04:47:38 <BEAR> brb
05/08/08 04:47:39 <Severus379> right
05/08/08 04:47:42 <Severus379> good to know
05/08/08 04:47:51 <Knot4Prophet> good ol free speech aye
05/08/08 04:47:59 Severus379_26658 has left
05/08/08 04:48:04 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:48:15 <Knot4Prophet> aw come back, silly girl
05/08/08 04:48:17 Severus379_26658 (78.52.226.28) (DSL 554 files) has entered
05/08/08 04:48:17 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] Severus : 78.52.226.28 : 17160
05/08/08 04:48:19 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 04:48:20 <Knot4Prophet> wb
05/08/08 04:48:22 <Severus379> thx
05/08/08 04:48:28 <Knot4Prophet> server drop u?
05/08/08 04:48:48 <choco_forever456> it was the smell of bear's poop
05/08/08 04:48:52 <Knot4Prophet> heh
05/08/08 04:49:01 <Knot4Prophet> brb coffee/nuke
05/08/08 04:49:18 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 04:49:22 <Severus379> was deliberate
05/08/08 04:49:45 <Severus379> your coffees tak ages
05/08/08 04:49:47 <choco_forever456> to protest
05/08/08 04:49:52 <Severus379> no no
05/08/08 04:49:59 <Severus379> just didn't want that on the screen
05/08/08 04:50:02 <Severus379> lol+
05/08/08 04:50:05 <choco_forever456> ren , where did you get that quote
05/08/08 04:50:08 <choco_forever456> humans overcome biology's command to 'survive'
05/08/08 04:50:11 <Severus379> what quote??
05/08/08 04:50:19 Relentless 258 is listening to Soul II Soul - Back To Life
05/08/08 04:50:22 <Severus379> I didn't get that from anywhere
05/08/08 04:50:37 <Severus379> it was a logical conclusion from what knot said
05/08/08 04:50:45 <choco_forever456> you sais is a quote
05/08/08 04:50:49 <choco_forever456> 11:42:45 <Severus379> QUOTE: humans overcome biology's command to 'survive' = humans can define moral in a way that has overcome this instinct
05/08/08 04:50:54 <Severus379> oh
05/08/08 04:50:58 <Severus379> it's knots quote
05/08/08 04:51:00 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:51:05 <Severus379> I was just taking it further
05/08/08 04:51:26 <Severus379> and applied it to the moral thing
05/08/08 04:51:33 <choco_forever456> yes I saw
05/08/08 04:51:40 <Severus379> he said it cause I mentioned altruistic (moral) suicide
05/08/08 04:51:43 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:51:48 <Severus379> lke sacrificing
05/08/08 04:51:55 <Severus379> or mass suicide
05/08/08 04:51:55 <choco_forever456> I read that too
05/08/08 04:52:01 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - Crip Anthem
05/08/08 04:52:14 <choco_forever456> yes but that sacrificing has the finality of saving others
05/08/08 04:52:19 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 04:52:23 <choco_forever456> so , survival again
05/08/08 04:52:24 <Severus379> so it is considered moral
05/08/08 04:52:33 <choco_forever456> survival of others
05/08/08 04:52:35 <Knot4Prophet> list any moral code that does not have at its root "survival" and i'll show u how its ambiguous morality
05/08/08 04:52:40 <Severus379> it isn't just for survival
05/08/08 04:52:42 <Severus379> is it?
05/08/08 04:52:43 <Knot4Prophet> name some
05/08/08 04:52:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> people who choose not to reproduce
05/08/08 04:52:55 <Knot4Prophet> list some morals that have nothing to do with surival
05/08/08 04:52:57 <Severus379> it could be for achieving happiness in the after life
05/08/08 04:53:01 <Severus379> that's not survival
05/08/08 04:53:08 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - Gang bangin' shit
05/08/08 04:53:23 <Severus379> Okay knot
05/08/08 04:53:24 <Knot4Prophet> i dont distill that as instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:53:25 Severus379 thinks
05/08/08 04:53:27 <Knot4Prophet> as with murder
05/08/08 04:53:27 <Severus379> ouch
05/08/08 04:53:29 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:53:36 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:53:37 <choco_forever456> survival of the soul then ;p
05/08/08 04:53:42 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 04:53:43 <Severus379> umpf
05/08/08 04:53:45 <Knot4Prophet> now ur thinkin
05/08/08 04:53:47 <Severus379> far fetched shit
05/08/08 04:53:49 <Severus379> haha
05/08/08 04:53:52 <choco_forever456>
05/08/08 04:53:52 Severus379 thinks again
05/08/08 04:53:56 <Knot4Prophet> so is life, far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:05 <Knot4Prophet> that we exist at all, is far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:05 <Severus379> now THAT is far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> most people don't murder because of consequence not instinc
05/08/08 04:54:09 <Knot4Prophet> do we see it anywhere else?
05/08/08 04:54:22 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> t
05/08/08 04:54:25 <Knot4Prophet> u cant prove that
05/08/08 04:54:29 <Severus379> artistic morals
05/08/08 04:54:31 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - The Loc Is On His Own
05/08/08 04:54:32 <Knot4Prophet> i know y i dont murder
05/08/08 04:54:33 <Severus379> like copyright
05/08/08 04:54:38 <Knot4Prophet> and it aint cuz what u just said
05/08/08 04:54:41 <Severus379> how is that about survival?
05/08/08 04:54:46 <Knot4Prophet> y should i assume everyone else is different, grr?
05/08/08 04:54:51 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont kill?
05/08/08 04:54:57 <Knot4Prophet> cuz the consequences, only?
05/08/08 04:54:59 <Knot4Prophet> really?
05/08/08 04:55:03 <Knot4Prophet> i find that rather shocking
05/08/08 04:55:12 <Knot4Prophet> copyright is not moral, to me, sev
05/08/08 04:55:18 <Knot4Prophet> its nonsense
05/08/08 04:55:18 <Severus379> not to you
05/08/08 04:55:23 <Severus379> but to artists
05/08/08 04:55:25 <Knot4Prophet> its not instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:55:31 <Severus379> morals aren't the same for each group
05/08/08 04:55:32 <Knot4Prophet> its cultural mores
05/08/08 04:55:43 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> why do people murder knot?
05/08/08 04:55:46 <Severus379> I was talking moral in general
05/08/08 04:55:51 <Severus379> you are already distinguishing
05/08/08 04:56:07 <Knot4Prophet> well that's y i distinguished 'instinctual morality' based purely on survival, from 'ambiguous morality' which may or may not have survival at its root
05/08/08 04:56:14 <Severus379> course there are instintual morals, but they don't necessarily determine the whole term morality
05/08/08 04:56:27 <Severus379> excuses excuses
05/08/08 04:56:30 <Severus379> I win
05/08/08 04:56:31 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:56:34 <Knot4Prophet> but u and bust agreed that all morality is learned
05/08/08 04:56:44 <Severus379> not all, no
05/08/08 04:56:45 <Knot4Prophet> and u just confessed that there are instinctual ones
05/08/08 04:56:47 Knot4Prophet 000 wins
05/08/08 04:56:50 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> why do people murder knot?
05/08/08 04:56:52 <Severus379> but the biggest part, aye
05/08/08 04:56:59 <Knot4Prophet> for various reasons, grr
05/08/08 04:57:06 <Knot4Prophet> is there just one reason?
05/08/08 04:57:13 <Severus379> bad conscience is a consequence
05/08/08 04:57:27 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if not murdering is instinctive then yes
05/08/08 04:57:30 <Knot4Prophet> we dont know we will have a bad conscience to do something we havent done
05/08/08 04:57:40 <Severus379> do we notß
05/08/08 04:57:41 <Severus379> ?
05/08/08 04:57:43 <Knot4Prophet> if murdering was instinctive, we'd all do it
05/08/08 04:57:52 <Knot4Prophet> what we all tend to do, is what is instinctive
05/08/08 04:57:57 <Severus379> do we have no ability to theorise that feeling?
05/08/08 04:58:00 <Knot4Prophet> and holding murder as bad is what we all tend to do
05/08/08 04:58:02 <Knot4Prophet> by and large
05/08/08 04:58:14 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it was instinct not to murder then why do people do it?
05/08/08 04:58:23 <Severus379> good point
05/08/08 04:58:26 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl dont
05/08/08 04:58:31 <Knot4Prophet> the will overcomes biology
05/08/08 04:58:33 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> but some do
05/08/08 04:58:33 <Severus379> and why is it considered moral
05/08/08 04:58:37 <Severus379> most people WOULD
05/08/08 04:58:40 <Knot4Prophet> the will is not always in line with biology
05/08/08 04:58:40 <Severus379> 66%
05/08/08 04:58:47 <Knot4Prophet> would murder?
05/08/08 04:58:48 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
05/08/08 04:58:50 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:58:51 <Knot4Prophet> nope
05/08/08 04:58:53 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:58:55 <Knot4Prophet> i dont believe u
05/08/08 04:59:00 <Severus379> don't have to
05/08/08 04:59:03 <Knot4Prophet> prove it then
05/08/08 04:59:05 <Severus379> Milgram said it all
05/08/08 04:59:06 <Knot4Prophet> show me when they did
05/08/08 04:59:10 <Severus379> Milgram experiment
05/08/08 04:59:13 <Knot4Prophet> lol i dont care what some dude said
05/08/08 04:59:17 <Knot4Prophet> nor what ppl claimed
05/08/08 04:59:18 <Severus379> look it up if you don't believe me
05/08/08 04:59:22 <Knot4Prophet> i care what happens for real
05/08/08 04:59:25 <Severus379> been repeated many times
05/08/08 04:59:28 Relentless 258 is listening to Wretch 32 - My Life
05/08/08 04:59:34 <Severus379> they did think it's real
05/08/08 04:59:37 <Knot4Prophet> well show me a case where 66% of ppl DID murder
05/08/08 04:59:38 <Severus379> that's the point
05/08/08 04:59:51 <Knot4Prophet> and i'll believe u
05/08/08 04:59:53 <Severus379> I just HAVE
05/08/08 04:59:57 <Knot4Prophet> no, u didnt
05/08/08 05:00:07 <Severus379> they were convinced they killed someone by electric shock
05/08/08 05:00:12 <Severus379> that counts
05/08/08 05:00:16 <Severus379> because they thought so
05/08/08 05:00:24 <Severus379> another example
05/08/08 05:00:28 <Knot4Prophet> sounds pretty abstract and removed from the source
05/08/08 05:00:30 <Severus379> what the Germans did to the Jews
05/08/08 05:00:34 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the agument that not murdering is instinctive by the very fact that people murder, and it's not so small a percentage to just be a typical standard deviation point
05/08/08 05:00:36 <Knot4Prophet> they felt justified
05/08/08 05:00:40 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 05:00:43 <Severus379> they murdered
05/08/08 05:00:45 <Severus379> many did
05/08/08 05:00:51 <Knot4Prophet> it is a very small percentage
05/08/08 05:00:52 <BEAR> Taking a life is not only extremely personal it's traumatic. Most people haven't even had a physical confrontation, let alone taken someones life. The amount of adrenaline alone would be enough for most to reconsider their actions in a situation of a murder.
05/08/08 05:00:55 <Severus379> too many for it not to be representative
05/08/08 05:00:56 <Knot4Prophet> shall we check some stats?
05/08/08 05:01:02 <Knot4Prophet> and see what percent murder?
05/08/08 05:01:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no it's not knot
05/08/08 05:01:05 <Severus379> I will be last
05/08/08 05:01:09 <Severus379> just got in
05/08/08 05:01:11 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:01:17 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> how many people have died in wars?
05/08/08 05:01:26 <Knot4Prophet> wars are justifiable murder
05/08/08 05:01:34 <Knot4Prophet> like if someone comes at u to kill u
05/08/08 05:01:38 <Knot4Prophet> u are justified then
05/08/08 05:01:40 <Severus379> I said that 66% of the people WOULD murder if they feel it's necessary
05/08/08 05:01:41 <Knot4Prophet> based on survival
05/08/08 05:01:43 <Severus379> if pressured
05/08/08 05:01:47 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
05/08/08 05:01:48 <Severus379> that is proven
05/08/08 05:01:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> a general tells you to kill someone you don't know overcomes instinct?
05/08/08 05:01:54 <Knot4Prophet> well if justified, sure
05/08/08 05:01:57 <Severus379> you just don't know the experiment
05/08/08 05:01:58 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout "murder"
05/08/08 05:02:01 <Severus379> so you put it down
05/08/08 05:02:07 <Severus379> so am I
05/08/08 05:02:13 <Severus379> you just don't want to believe it
05/08/08 05:02:19 <Severus379> and say bullshit instead
05/08/08 05:02:22 <Severus379> sad, really
05/08/08 05:02:29 <Severus379> you are not even looking it up
05/08/08 05:02:33 <Knot4Prophet> if u can justify in ur mind that who u are killing is a threat, then its 'good'
05/08/08 05:02:42 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 05:02:43 <BEAR> What if that general told you if you don't kill someone you don't know, said "someone" would kill you and yours
05/08/08 05:02:45 <Knot4Prophet> if its saving a billion, but costing one, its 'good'
05/08/08 05:02:46 <Severus379> it wasn't like that
05/08/08 05:02:55 <Knot4Prophet> right, bear
05/08/08 05:02:59 <Severus379> they were put under pressure, but not physically
05/08/08 05:03:01 <Knot4Prophet> that's justification
05/08/08 05:03:08 <Severus379> simply convinced by a figure of authority
05/08/08 05:03:26 Relentless 258 is listening to Track 6
05/08/08 05:03:28 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> yes bear like the invasion of iraq
05/08/08 05:03:28 <Knot4Prophet> well im talking about murder in general, not war
05/08/08 05:03:30 <Severus379> and under those circumstances two thirds of people would go as far as murder
05/08/08 05:03:38 <Severus379> omg
05/08/08 05:03:39 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> kill them before they kill us
05/08/08 05:03:39 <Knot4Prophet> if justified?
05/08/08 05:03:41 <Knot4Prophet> of course they would
05/08/08 05:03:43 <Knot4Prophet> so would i
05/08/08 05:03:43 <Severus379> just read it up
05/08/08 05:03:53 <Severus379> honestly, it's complicated
05/08/08 05:03:58 <Knot4Prophet> of course it is
05/08/08 05:04:42 <Knot4Prophet> if someone is bout to kill me and i kill them, its justifiable with regards to survival cuz i can assume that person may kill others too
05/08/08 05:04:51 <BEAR> I honestly feel lighter after I took that shit
05/08/08 05:04:53 <BEAR> and hungry
05/08/08 05:04:54 <Knot4Prophet> and i can also assume that by keepign other alive, keeps me alive
05/08/08 05:05:06 <Severus379> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
05/08/08 05:05:28 <Knot4Prophet> so justification is about a calculation of survival
05/08/08 05:05:38 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:05:43 <Severus379> no one thought they would die
05/08/08 05:05:45 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not even close
05/08/08 05:05:50 <Severus379> but we drifted off there
05/08/08 05:05:53 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:06:00 <Severus379> were talking morality
05/08/08 05:06:10 <Severus379> I would say in general all morals are learnt
05/08/08 05:06:15 <Severus379> apart from a very few
05/08/08 05:06:20 <Knot4Prophet> i'd agree
05/08/08 05:06:20 <Severus379> insignificant
05/08/08 05:06:24 <Knot4Prophet> wrong
05/08/08 05:06:31 <Severus379> because we even overcome the instinctual ones
05/08/08 05:06:34 <Knot4Prophet> survival is the most instinctual morality we have
05/08/08 05:06:40 <Severus379> so they are not part of morality any more
05/08/08 05:06:47 <Knot4Prophet> cuz we all, biologically, fear death
05/08/08 05:06:56 <Severus379> if there are societies who overcome the instictual ones.... one needs to relearn
05/08/08 05:06:58 <Knot4Prophet> we touch a hot pan, and hand moves quick
05/08/08 05:07:00 <Severus379> so basically
05/08/08 05:07:02 <Knot4Prophet> who taught u that?
05/08/08 05:07:03 <Severus379> all morals are learnt
05/08/08 05:07:27 <Severus379> because we also have to learn if the society we live in obeys the survival instinct
05/08/08 05:07:27 <Knot4Prophet> we avoid death, and because we have awareness, we calculate the value of surival of others
05/08/08 05:07:31 <Knot4Prophet> that's instinctual morality
05/08/08 05:07:41 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl obey it
05/08/08 05:07:45 <Knot4Prophet> unless acted upon
05/08/08 05:07:46 <Severus379> yeah, but apart from having the instincs...
05/08/08 05:07:58 <Severus379> we need to learn if that society obeys that rule
05/08/08 05:08:03 <Severus379> is that so difficult?
05/08/08 05:08:11 <Severus379> it is learned also
05/08/08 05:08:16 <Severus379> instinctual or not
05/08/08 05:08:21 <Knot4Prophet> definitely
05/08/08 05:08:25 <Severus379> we have instincts, yes
05/08/08 05:08:33 <Knot4Prophet> we have a legal system comprised of morality
05/08/08 05:08:40 <Severus379> but we have to learn if our environment accepts them
05/08/08 05:08:43 <Severus379> or not
05/08/08 05:08:45 <Severus379> or knot
05/08/08 05:08:48 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:09:03 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:09:08 <Knot4Prophet> (:
05/08/08 05:09:15 BEAR 999 watchs Esoteric Agenda on google video
05/08/08 05:09:34 <Severus379> the instincts alone...
05/08/08 05:09:39 <Severus379> aren't the basis for morality
05/08/08 05:09:42 <Severus379> they CANNOT be
05/08/08 05:09:44 <Knot4Prophet> are the basis of morality, yup
05/08/08 05:09:45 <Severus379> by logic
05/08/08 05:09:53 <Severus379> it's impossible
05/08/08 05:09:54 <Knot4Prophet> all morality is rooted in 'survival' to some degree
05/08/08 05:09:57 <Knot4Prophet> even copyright law
05/08/08 05:10:02 <Knot4Prophet> survival of the artist
05/08/08 05:10:03 <Severus379> following your chain of thoughts, it's impossible
05/08/08 05:10:05 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> many cultures have embraced human sacrifice, do you believe that would be possible if not murdering was instinctive?
05/08/08 05:10:24 <Severus379> are you doing your probabilistic shite again, knot?
05/08/08 05:10:32 <Severus379> instead of properly defining?
05/08/08 05:10:34 <Knot4Prophet> they felt that the few sacrificed benefitted the rest, on a survival basis
05/08/08 05:10:36 <Knot4Prophet> check it out
05/08/08 05:10:42 <Knot4Prophet> as to y they sacrificed
05/08/08 05:10:52 <Severus379> not necessarily
05/08/08 05:10:57 <Knot4Prophet> properly defining what?
05/08/08 05:11:04 <Severus379> MORALITY!
05/08/08 05:11:06 Relentless 258 is listening to Enya - If I Could Be Where You Are
05/08/08 05:11:07 <Knot4Prophet> not necessarily, but mainly
05/08/08 05:11:07 <Severus379> fucksake
05/08/08 05:11:10 Severus379 swears
05/08/08 05:11:12 <Knot4Prophet> i defined it, first
05/08/08 05:11:13 Relentless 258 is listening to Music-Eurythmics - There Must Be An Angel
05/08/08 05:11:14 <Knot4Prophet> from the start
05/08/08 05:11:22 <Knot4Prophet> my definition
05/08/08 05:11:26 <Severus379> you define it from a probabilistic point of view
05/08/08 05:11:26 <Knot4Prophet> which is a new one, obviously
05/08/08 05:11:30 <Severus379> by saying MOST
05/08/08 05:11:34 <Severus379> that sucks
05/08/08 05:11:41 <Severus379> it is not correct
05/08/08 05:11:55 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot say "all" for any human endeavour such as 'morality'
05/08/08 05:11:58 <Severus379> its like: the bigger the shoe size, the better the child will be at maths
05/08/08 05:12:02 <Knot4Prophet> it has no consistent meaning
05/08/08 05:12:06 <Knot4Prophet> i gave it one
05/08/08 05:12:11 <Severus379> forgetting that age is the relevant variable here
05/08/08 05:12:27 <Severus379> it has a consistent function
05/08/08 05:12:32 <Severus379> it's the foundation
05/08/08 05:12:33 <Knot4Prophet> i never factored age into it or out of it
05/08/08 05:12:35 <Severus379> of society
05/08/08 05:12:45 <Severus379> no, you misunderstood that
05/08/08 05:13:09 <Severus379> by argueing from a probabilistic point of view you miss out the opportunity to make a definition that fits all
05/08/08 05:13:15 <Knot4Prophet> when we talk of any human behaviour we can never say "all" - most is the best we can do
05/08/08 05:13:17 <Severus379> read again
05/08/08 05:13:36 <Knot4Prophet> i disagree that i've missed any opportunities
05/08/08 05:13:41 <Severus379> when we talk about a term we can try and find a definition that allows no exceptions
05/08/08 05:13:43 <Knot4Prophet> i wanted a narrow definition
05/08/08 05:13:47 <Severus379> take it in a abstract level
05/08/08 05:13:53 <Severus379> but you're not doing that
05/08/08 05:13:59 <Severus379> you stay in the raw bit
05/08/08 05:14:09 <Severus379> insisting on your theory
05/08/08 05:14:24 <Knot4Prophet> biology all wants to survive, i said - but obviously that's only "most"
05/08/08 05:14:29 <Knot4Prophet> some is damaged
05/08/08 05:14:30 <BEAR> http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... m2AQ&hl=en
05/08/08 05:14:32 <Severus379> I am not talking BIOLOGY!
05/08/08 05:14:42 <Knot4Prophet> that's part of my theory of morality
05/08/08 05:14:46 <Severus379> we can only explain the social out of the social
05/08/08 05:14:48 <Knot4Prophet> biology is necessary
05/08/08 05:14:55 <Knot4Prophet> entities
05/08/08 05:14:59 <Knot4Prophet> who live and die
05/08/08 05:15:01 <Severus379> ufff
05/08/08 05:15:12 <Knot4Prophet> we all live, we all die
05/08/08 05:15:13 <Severus379> it's too holistic, mate
05/08/08 05:15:20 <Knot4Prophet> hows that for absolutism?
05/08/08 05:15:20 <Severus379> too shallow
05/08/08 05:15:21 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:15:27 <Knot4Prophet> u just say that when u dont agree
05/08/08 05:15:32 <Knot4Prophet> like u did with anti
05/08/08 05:15:32 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:15:35 <Severus379> haha
05/08/08 05:15:37 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:15:51 <Severus379> no, combining them is too complicated just now
05/08/08 05:16:01 <Severus379> difference is, anti will just repeat himself
05/08/08 05:16:07 <Severus379> you'll explain better
05/08/08 05:16:09 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:16:17 <Knot4Prophet> i dont need to include copyright law into my theory of morality cuz i dont feel that copyright law is morally justifiable
05/08/08 05:16:31 <Knot4Prophet> i dont need an all encompassing theory that explains all human behaviour
05/08/08 05:16:31 <Severus379> well, then it will stay just that
05/08/08 05:16:34 <Severus379> YOUR theory
05/08/08 05:16:39 <Severus379> applicable to no one
05/08/08 05:16:40 <Knot4Prophet> im just explaing base instincts
05/08/08 05:16:44 <Severus379> but knot
05/08/08 05:16:51 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 05:16:54 <Knot4Prophet> using real life examples
05/08/08 05:16:56 <Severus379> what is that worth?
05/08/08 05:16:59 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> morality is not instinctive
05/08/08 05:17:00 <Knot4Prophet> of real ppl and my own experience
05/08/08 05:17:08 <Knot4Prophet> it is for me, grrr
05/08/08 05:17:15 <Knot4Prophet> i didnt need to learn that i dont want to die
05/08/08 05:17:16 <Severus379> yeah but just for you
05/08/08 05:17:26 <Knot4Prophet> i know many ppl who agree with what i just said
05/08/08 05:17:26 <Severus379> why make theories that don't apply to anyone
05/08/08 05:17:33 <Severus379> bit selfish for a great mind like you
05/08/08 05:17:35 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> there is far too much immorality for it to be
05/08/08 05:17:37 <Knot4Prophet> they apply to everyone, whether they agree or not
05/08/08 05:17:40 Relentless 258 is listening to no artist - AudioTrack 01
05/08/08 05:17:45 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:17:49 <Knot4Prophet> what consists of immorality?
05/08/08 05:17:49 <Severus379> how can they
05/08/08 05:17:50 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:17:50 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] mickey : 207.192.209.233 : 15368
05/08/08 05:17:54 <Knot4Prophet> justifiable murder doesnt
05/08/08 05:17:59 <Knot4Prophet> list what does, grrr
05/08/08 05:18:02 <Severus379> immorality means disacknowledgement
05/08/08 05:18:03 <Knot4Prophet> list all this 'immorality'
05/08/08 05:18:05 <Severus379> of an action
05/08/08 05:18:14 <Severus379> and consequences could be punishment
05/08/08 05:18:27 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> for a start different cultures define morality differently
05/08/08 05:18:29 <Knot4Prophet> if i rape some chick, that's not disacknowledging her
05/08/08 05:18:41 <Knot4Prophet> yeah the ambiguous morality is defined differently
05/08/08 05:18:44 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it was instinct one size woud fit all
05/08/08 05:18:44 <Knot4Prophet> cuz its ambiguous
05/08/08 05:18:45 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:47 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:49 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:50 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:51 <Knot4Prophet> murder is a code across all cultures
05/08/08 05:19:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no it's not
05/08/08 05:19:05 <Knot4Prophet> we all "decided" that murder was wrong?
05/08/08 05:19:06 <Severus379> here we go, there is a term that excludes exceptions
05/08/08 05:19:10 <Knot4Prophet> bull shit.
05/08/08 05:19:18 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the aztec murdered for fun
05/08/08 05:19:23 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 05:19:27 <Knot4Prophet> not each other and not for fun
05/08/08 05:19:30 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> many cultures have
05/08/08 05:19:35 <Knot4Prophet> they felt justified
05/08/08 05:19:37 <Severus379> we "decide that it's wrong cause we know it's wrong
05/08/08 05:19:40 <Knot4Prophet> they didnt murder randomly
05/08/08 05:19:41 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> a human is a human knot
05/08/08 05:19:43 <Severus379> you only attacked the weakest word
05/08/08 05:19:51 <Severus379> ignoring my great sentence
05/08/08 05:19:53 <Knot4Prophet> humans do not murder, by and large
05/08/08 05:19:59 <Knot4Prophet> lol sev
05/08/08 05:20:05 <Knot4Prophet> y not attack weakest link?
05/08/08 05:20:07 Severus379 is in a huff
05/08/08 05:20:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it's hard wired we wouldn't do it
05/08/08 05:20:20 <Knot4Prophet> wires dont always work right
05/08/08 05:20:27 <Knot4Prophet> we have deformities too
05/08/08 05:20:30 <Severus379> we don't do it for several reasons
05/08/08 05:20:30 <mickey572> well... tell me of 911 then.. was that murder
05/08/08 05:20:36 <Severus379> but that doesn't fucking matter
05/08/08 05:20:36 <Knot4Prophet> surely
05/08/08 05:20:38 <Knot4Prophet> @mick
05/08/08 05:20:44 <Severus379> it doesn't matter why we don't do it
05/08/08 05:20:49 <Knot4Prophet> it does to me
05/08/08 05:20:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> so all murderers are just people with broken insticts?
05/08/08 05:20:57 <Knot4Prophet> perhaps
05/08/08 05:21:04 <Severus379> yeah, but it's not important what matters to you
05/08/08 05:21:04 <Knot4Prophet> perhaps their justifications are fucked up
05/08/08 05:21:07 <Severus379> on a large scale
05/08/08 05:21:15 <Knot4Prophet> it is important
05/08/08 05:21:18 <Knot4Prophet> cuz i declare it
05/08/08 05:21:32 Severus379 sighs and throws her arms up in resignation
05/08/08 05:21:35 <Knot4Prophet> if im bothering to ponder it, it must be important
05/08/08 05:21:39 <mickey572> grrrrrrrrrrrrrr when you figure out the pilot ... of 911 you see
05/08/08 05:21:51 <mickey572> ok
05/08/08 05:22:12 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i see what mick?
05/08/08 05:22:29 <Knot4Prophet> show me a culture where ppl didnt work together to aid each other's surival
05/08/08 05:22:33 <BEAR> Knot
05/08/08 05:22:42 <BEAR> I'm pretty sure this doc. is bullshit... but
05/08/08 05:22:46 <Knot4Prophet> show me the success of "murder" when we consider the balloonign population of the earth
05/08/08 05:22:48 <BEAR> Not completely sure.
05/08/08 05:22:50 <Severus379> what does that have to do with defining moral???
05/08/08 05:22:52 <mickey572> sigh...........when you figure out the pilot ... of 911
05/08/08 05:23:01 <Knot4Prophet> shall we check some stats on human population thru the past 5000 years?
05/08/08 05:23:02 <Severus379> you can't see morality by what people do
05/08/08 05:23:04 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:23:04 <mickey572> you will see....... ok
05/08/08 05:23:08 <Knot4Prophet> lets see how "successful" murder is
05/08/08 05:23:10 <mickey572> good grief
05/08/08 05:23:11 Relentless 258 is listening to Artist-Session1 Track1
05/08/08 05:23:11 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:23:15 <Severus379> you can only see it by what people unish
05/08/08 05:23:17 <Severus379> punish
05/08/08 05:23:25 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> people by and large don't murder because of consequence
05/08/08 05:23:36 <Severus379> that doesn't matter either
05/08/08 05:23:40 <Severus379> what matters is...
05/08/08 05:23:41 <Knot4Prophet> what's morally instinctual is what is found across all cultures, is what im saying, sev
05/08/08 05:23:54 <BEAR> aaaand you're engrossed
05/08/08 05:23:55 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont murder, grr?
05/08/08 05:24:00 BEAR 999 goes back to his doc.
05/08/08 05:24:01 <mickey572> dang knot..... you are so smart
05/08/08 05:24:04 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:24:06 <Knot4Prophet> u didnt answer last time i asked
05/08/08 05:24:09 <mickey572> sorry... i got to go
05/08/08 05:24:11 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 05:24:11 <Knot4Prophet> i am smart, aye
05/08/08 05:24:19 <Relentless> cunt
05/08/08 05:24:20 <Severus379> there is only one universal moral, man
05/08/08 05:24:20 <Relentless> lol
05/08/08 05:24:22 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont murder ppl, grr?
05/08/08 05:24:23 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no knot i don't murder because of empathy
05/08/08 05:24:24 <Severus379> how many times???
05/08/08 05:24:32 <Knot4Prophet> but no one else is afforded that?
05/08/08 05:24:38 <Knot4Prophet> yet im sitting her claiming same thing
05/08/08 05:24:46 <Knot4Prophet> and stats prove that most ppl are like me
05/08/08 05:24:49 <Knot4Prophet> history proves it
05/08/08 05:24:55 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 05:24:58 <Knot4Prophet> yet u think most ppl murder not cuz y u do?
05/08/08 05:24:59 <Severus379> there was this guy
05/08/08 05:25:00 <Knot4Prophet> seriously?
05/08/08 05:25:03 <Knot4Prophet> come now
05/08/08 05:25:10 <Severus379> who lived with hundreds of clans
05/08/08 05:25:14 <Severus379> and sent people out
05/08/08 05:25:16 <BEAR> Jesus christ
05/08/08 05:25:19 <Severus379> levi strauss
05/08/08 05:25:25 <BEAR> this video is damn near lunacy
05/08/08 05:25:36 <Severus379> and he found that the only universal moral is incest taboo
05/08/08 05:25:39 <Severus379> NOT murder
05/08/08 05:25:51 <Knot4Prophet> well i disagree, but he may define morality different
05/08/08 05:25:58 <Severus379> you can't disagree
05/08/08 05:26:00 <Knot4Prophet> i equate good with 'survival'
05/08/08 05:26:05 <Severus379> urgh
05/08/08 05:26:05 <Knot4Prophet> and bad with 'death'
05/08/08 05:26:11 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not in the australian aboriginal population ren
05/08/08 05:26:16 <Severus379> there is a reason why they are two different words
05/08/08 05:26:18 <Severus379> no?
05/08/08 05:26:21 <Knot4Prophet> they do incest?
05/08/08 05:26:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> sure do
05/08/08 05:26:31 <Knot4Prophet> cool
05/08/08 05:26:33 <Severus379> grrrr, they do not
05/08/08 05:26:34 <Knot4Prophet> so did Lot
05/08/08 05:26:40 <Severus379> yes ad it was wrong
05/08/08 05:26:41 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> yes they do ren
05/08/08 05:26:43 <Knot4Prophet> and god saved his ass just to do it
05/08/08 05:26:46 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:26:49 <Severus379> people doing it shows that it's wrong
05/08/08 05:26:50 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> still do infact
05/08/08 05:26:56 <Severus379> cause it's punished
05/08/08 05:27:08 <Knot4Prophet> it causes deformities, which is anti-survival
05/08/08 05:27:09 <Severus379> incest is the only thing that is never accepted
05/08/08 05:27:16 <Hucky713> bollox
05/08/08 05:27:18 <Knot4Prophet> but not always deformities, so ambiguous
05/08/08 05:27:28 <Severus379> doesn't mean that people don't do it
05/08/08 05:27:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it's punished now if it's discovered
05/08/08 05:27:36 <Severus379> it's just never accepted
05/08/08 05:27:38 <Severus379> as a whole
05/08/08 05:27:47 <Severus379> australians do not legalise incest
05/08/08 05:27:47 <Knot4Prophet> lots of the aristocracy in france and england and elsewhere practised it, too
05/08/08 05:27:52 <Severus379> illegal = immoral
05/08/08 05:27:55 <Severus379> in that case
05/08/08 05:28:03 <Severus379> that proves my point
05/08/08 05:28:08 <Hucky713> murders not immoral?
05/08/08 05:28:16 Relentless 258 is listening to Bloods & Crips - Blood in Blood out
05/08/08 05:28:17 <choco_forever456> till recently in UK was legal the marriage between primary cousines
05/08/08 05:28:17 <Knot4Prophet> proves that incest isnt instinctual morality, aye
05/08/08 05:28:20 <Severus379> not everywhere
05/08/08 05:28:21 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> before the european conquest it was common practice
05/08/08 05:28:25 <Severus379> in third reich it wasn't
05/08/08 05:28:43 <choco_forever456> in ancient times bro/sis sex wasnt considered imoral
05/08/08 05:28:43 <Severus379> and you can't "DEFINE" based on "PROBABILITIES"
05/08/08 05:28:46 <Hucky713> ah well, they were correct huh.
05/08/08 05:28:46 BEAR 999 looks back in
05/08/08 05:28:50 <Severus379> that's not what a definition is
05/08/08 05:28:54 <Knot4Prophet> well this incest taboo is not consistent
05/08/08 05:28:54 <Severus379> that's a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:28:58 <Knot4Prophet> not like murder is
05/08/08 05:29:05 <Knot4Prophet> cuz murder = non survival
05/08/08 05:29:06 <Severus379> incest taboo is consistent
05/08/08 05:29:07 <Knot4Prophet> incest doesnt
05/08/08 05:29:08 <Knot4Prophet> nope
05/08/08 05:29:12 <Knot4Prophet> grr just showed how it aint
05/08/08 05:29:14 <Knot4Prophet> and so did choco
05/08/08 05:29:15 <Severus379> it is always punished
05/08/08 05:29:16 <Knot4Prophet> and so did i
05/08/08 05:29:17 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it is mentioned in the OT
05/08/08 05:29:18 <Severus379> never accepted
05/08/08 05:29:23 <Knot4Prophet> it was in OT too, aye
05/08/08 05:29:25 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:29:28 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> lot and his daughters
05/08/08 05:29:31 <Knot4Prophet> aye
05/08/08 05:29:31 <BEAR> Instinctual
05/08/08 05:29:33 <Severus379> but God killed thousands
05/08/08 05:29:33 <Knot4Prophet> i wrote an essay on it
05/08/08 05:29:47 <choco_forever456> not always , just recently it started to be accepted as imoral among most societies
05/08/08 05:29:50 <Knot4Prophet> him fucking his kids, after being spared from sodom and gomorrahs destruction
05/08/08 05:29:51 <Severus379> the OT isn't exactly a foundation for morality
05/08/08 05:29:59 <choco_forever456> after they realised it jeopartises survival
05/08/08 05:30:00 <Knot4Prophet> history is, tho
05/08/08 05:30:08 <Severus379> just because someone wrote that fairy tale
05/08/08 05:30:08 <choco_forever456> jeo...
05/08/08 05:30:08 <BEAR> They got dad drunk and went for a ride
05/08/08 05:30:11 <choco_forever456> whatever
05/08/08 05:30:12 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:30:18 <Severus379> incest happens
05/08/08 05:30:22 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 05:30:23 <Knot4Prophet> in all fiction there is non fiction, and vice versa
05/08/08 05:30:26 <Severus379> but it's aöwaysdespised
05/08/08 05:30:30 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot totally separate them
05/08/08 05:30:30 <Severus379> people are outraged
05/08/08 05:30:36 <Severus379> it is made illegal
05/08/08 05:30:37 <Knot4Prophet> not always, some dig it
05/08/08 05:30:38 <Severus379> or punished
05/08/08 05:30:42 <Severus379> but never accapted
05/08/08 05:30:54 <Knot4Prophet> grr said in aus aborigines it was
05/08/08 05:30:57 <Severus379> at list first degree incest
05/08/08 05:30:59 <Severus379> only that
05/08/08 05:31:02 <Severus379> not cousins, etc
05/08/08 05:31:10 <Knot4Prophet> well now ur being murky
05/08/08 05:31:11 <choco_forever456> is marriage amongst cousines incest to you , ren?
05/08/08 05:31:11 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:31:16 <Severus379> read up on Levi-Strauss incest taboo
05/08/08 05:31:19 <Severus379> he says it well
05/08/08 05:31:30 <BEAR> I'm sorry but I have a first cousin who is smokin' hot. Delusional as fuck.. whorey and stuck up. Arrogant lil christian chit. But still pretty fucking hot.
05/08/08 05:31:35 <Knot4Prophet> i dont buy into other ppl's theories, much
05/08/08 05:31:38 <Severus379> marriage amongst cousins isn't part of the incest taboo, no
05/08/08 05:31:43 <Knot4Prophet> unless i can get there on my own, too
05/08/08 05:31:46 <BEAR> Course you don't, knot
05/08/08 05:31:50 <Severus379> that's silly
05/08/08 05:31:53 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> ummm father/daughter brother/brother it was just sex to them
05/08/08 05:31:57 <BEAR> you tank track over it and make yer own
05/08/08 05:32:04 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:32:07 <Knot4Prophet> i dont consider anyone more capable than me
05/08/08 05:32:11 <Knot4Prophet> y should i?
05/08/08 05:32:12 <BEAR> < does
05/08/08 05:32:18 Severus379 does, too
05/08/08 05:32:23 <choco_forever456> romans were shagging their own sisters like chimps
05/08/08 05:32:24 BEAR 999 grins
05/08/08 05:32:30 <BEAR> Right, choco
05/08/08 05:32:31 <choco_forever456> brithers ocasinally
05/08/08 05:32:35 <choco_forever456> brothers*
05/08/08 05:32:36 <BEAR> and the greeks before them
05/08/08 05:32:39 <Severus379> do you know that cause it was punished?
05/08/08 05:32:39 <Knot4Prophet> i dont defer to 'received wisdom'
05/08/08 05:32:40 <BEAR> sons
05/08/08 05:32:41 <choco_forever456> too much
05/08/08 05:32:48 <Severus379> cause people DO incest
05/08/08 05:32:53 <BEAR> What other kind of wisdom is there, knot?
05/08/08 05:32:55 <Severus379> that's how we find out
05/08/08 05:32:59 <Severus379> if it's immoral
05/08/08 05:33:07 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> just as people DO murder
05/08/08 05:33:07 <Knot4Prophet> murder is more consistent as a moral factor than is incest
05/08/08 05:33:10 <Severus379> by the breech of the morale
05/08/08 05:33:17 <Severus379> it is?
05/08/08 05:33:18 <BEAR> Much more.
05/08/08 05:33:19 <Severus379> prove it
05/08/08 05:33:24 <BEAR> axiom
05/08/08 05:33:31 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:33:34 <BEAR> yer
05/08/08 05:33:35 <Knot4Prophet> and the degree to which incest is consistent, is the degree to which it is instinctually moral
05/08/08 05:33:53 <Knot4Prophet> same goes for any other moral behaviour
05/08/08 05:33:58 <Severus379> murder isn't necessarily immoral
05/08/08 05:34:00 <Severus379> therefore
05/08/08 05:34:07 <Knot4Prophet> the less consistent, the less instinctual, the more 'learned'
05/08/08 05:34:07 <Hucky713> bollox
05/08/08 05:34:10 <Severus379> it cannot be part of the definition
05/08/08 05:34:18 <BEAR> hm
05/08/08 05:34:19 <Severus379> cannot be
05/08/08 05:34:20 Sprinkles657_13180 (90.202.218.194) (Cable 0 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:34:20 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] Sprinkles : 90.202.218.194 : 56587
05/08/08 05:34:23 <Severus379> logic
05/08/08 05:34:31 <choco_forever456> if the results of such an actions affects the welfare of other or himself , thats how we find if something is moral or not.
05/08/08 05:34:32 <Knot4Prophet> if murder isnt immoral, nothig is
05/08/08 05:34:36 <Knot4Prophet> and we dont need to bother conversiong
05/08/08 05:34:45 <Severus379> murder isn't immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:34:49 <Severus379> I said that
05/08/08 05:34:54 <Severus379> so it's not partof it
05/08/08 05:34:57 Relentless 258 is listening to Gin Blossoms - Hey Jealousy
05/08/08 05:35:01 <Knot4Prophet> random, unjustified murder is immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:35:04 <Knot4Prophet> or they wouldnt exist!
05/08/08 05:35:05 <Severus379> only MOSTLY
05/08/08 05:35:12 <Severus379> but it doesn't make the definition
05/08/08 05:35:16 <Knot4Prophet> same with any human behaviour
05/08/08 05:35:20 <Severus379> I know
05/08/08 05:35:29 <Severus379> but it doesn't make the definition
05/08/08 05:35:33 <Knot4Prophet> it makes mine
05/08/08 05:35:36 <Severus379> do you knot understand?
05/08/08 05:35:50 <Knot4Prophet> random, unjustified murder is immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:35:57 <BEAR> Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (seco
05/08/08 05:36:01 <Severus379> I was talking general
05/08/08 05:36:15 <Hucky713> talking bollox more like.
05/08/08 05:36:15 <Severus379> not YOUR little homemade probabilistic defo
05/08/08 05:36:16 <Knot4Prophet> well ur using a definition of murder that i dont adhere to
05/08/08 05:36:29 <Knot4Prophet> i dont call any old killing murder
05/08/08 05:36:31 <Knot4Prophet> neither does the law
05/08/08 05:36:37 <Knot4Prophet> i can kill someone who attacks me
05/08/08 05:36:38 <BEAR> Right.
05/08/08 05:36:40 <Knot4Prophet> justifiably
05/08/08 05:36:44 <Severus379> I am saying that when you define moral it doesn't include a certain thing
05/08/08 05:36:47 <Knot4Prophet> its righteoius
05/08/08 05:36:48 <Severus379> it is a construct
05/08/08 05:36:57 <Knot4Prophet> all things are constructs, so what?
05/08/08 05:36:59 <Severus379> different everywhere
05/08/08 05:37:11 <Knot4Prophet> if it explains something, it has value
05/08/08 05:37:11 <Severus379> apart from the incest thing, but that is completely unimportant
05/08/08 05:37:15 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:37:17 <Severus379> everything is a construct
05/08/08 05:37:18 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:37:22 <Severus379> not instinct
05/08/08 05:37:26 <Severus379> CONSTRUCZ
05/08/08 05:37:28 <Severus379> hehehe
05/08/08 05:37:31 <Severus379> construct
05/08/08 05:37:34 <Severus379> we are not animals
05/08/08 05:37:35 <BEAR> and I think you're well "constructed"
05/08/08 05:37:38 BEAR 999 growls
05/08/08 05:37:41 <Knot4Prophet> just cuz we fashion a construct doesnt mean the things we construct it around are nonexistent
05/08/08 05:37:44 <Knot4Prophet> nor random
05/08/08 05:37:48 <Hucky713> we are Animals, you numpty
05/08/08 05:38:02 <Severus379> yeah, but the term moral raises above that fact
05/08/08 05:38:07 <Knot4Prophet> how so?
05/08/08 05:38:10 <Knot4Prophet> "raises"?
05/08/08 05:38:13 <Severus379> I am talking about the things that distinguish us
05/08/08 05:38:17 <Severus379> from animals
05/08/08 05:38:23 <Severus379> social construction
05/08/08 05:38:28 <Hucky713> like murder not being immoral?
05/08/08 05:38:29 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout instinctual morality
05/08/08 05:38:31 <Severus379> sitting in a chat for example?
05/08/08 05:38:43 <Knot4Prophet> we all know murder is wrong, and we didnt need to be taught it
05/08/08 05:38:51 <Severus379> course we are animals to some degree, but that goes without saying
05/08/08 05:38:52 <BEAR> an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.
05/08/08 05:38:56 <BEAR> Instinct
05/08/08 05:38:58 <Knot4Prophet> cuz we are "aware" or as grr said, he can empathize, which requires awareness
05/08/08 05:39:02 <Severus379> I think murder is immoral
05/08/08 05:39:07 <Knot4Prophet> it is!
05/08/08 05:39:07 <Severus379> but not everyone does
05/08/08 05:39:08 <Hucky713> lol
05/08/08 05:39:08 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:39:13 <Knot4Prophet> most everyone does
05/08/08 05:39:21 <Severus379> so it cannot define the term
05/08/08 05:39:21 <Knot4Prophet> only a negligible amount dont
05/08/08 05:39:24 Relentless 258 is listening to Artist-Session1 Track1
05/08/08 05:39:30 <Severus379> "most" can't make adefinition
05/08/08 05:39:30 <choco_forever456> which are usually mental
05/08/08 05:39:34 <Knot4Prophet> most can so
05/08/08 05:39:38 <Severus379> what?
05/08/08 05:39:49 <Severus379> it can make a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:39:53 <Severus379> not a definition
05/08/08 05:39:55 <Knot4Prophet> if it contains 99.9% thats enough for me to define a class
05/08/08 05:40:01 <Severus379> no it isn't
05/08/08 05:40:05 <Knot4Prophet> it is for me
05/08/08 05:40:08 <Severus379> it's a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:40:19 <Knot4Prophet> all things are hypotheses
05/08/08 05:40:26 <Severus379> definitions are all including
05/08/08 05:40:32 <Knot4Prophet> some are, some arent
05/08/08 05:40:33 <Severus379> and excluding exceptions
05/08/08 05:40:42 <Knot4Prophet> my morality is divided into 2
05/08/08 05:40:42 <Severus379> that's what define means
05/08/08 05:40:44 <Knot4Prophet> which covers all
05/08/08 05:40:54 <Severus379> umpf
05/08/08 05:40:58 <Knot4Prophet> and is backed by biology
05/08/08 05:41:00 <Knot4Prophet> and history
05/08/08 05:41:04 <Severus379> I am not talking about FOR YOU
05/08/08 05:41:10 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout for all of us
05/08/08 05:41:14 <Knot4Prophet> its applicable to u too
05/08/08 05:41:21 <Severus379> it isn't
05/08/08 05:41:22 <Knot4Prophet> i know u dont murder cuz of what grr said too
05/08/08 05:41:31 <Knot4Prophet> cuz u can empathize
05/08/08 05:41:33 <Knot4Prophet> cuz u value life
05/08/08 05:41:38 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:41:39 <Knot4Prophet> cuz ur biology says "survive"
05/08/08 05:41:42 <Severus379> but besides that
05/08/08 05:41:50 <choco_forever456> I am telling you its immoral whatever action is carried and it affects the welfare and life of itself or others .
05/08/08 05:42:20 <Severus379> what immoral is you can see by what is being punished/disacknowledged
05/08/08 05:42:32 <Severus379> that doesn't include things yet
05/08/08 05:42:37 <Knot4Prophet> and im saying the degree to which that action is ambiguously against surivival is the degree to which is ambiguous morality
05/08/08 05:42:38 <Severus379> we fill that definition
05/08/08 05:42:48 <Severus379> oh knot
05/08/08 05:42:55 <Severus379> we are all destroying out planet
05/08/08 05:42:58 <Severus379> you are smoking
05/08/08 05:43:00 <Knot4Prophet> says who?
05/08/08 05:43:10 <Knot4Prophet> how do i know smoking destroys the planet?
05/08/08 05:43:11 <Severus379> too complicated
05/08/08 05:43:15 <Severus379> different example
05/08/08 05:43:16 <Knot4Prophet> i dont believe that at all
05/08/08 05:43:20 <Knot4Prophet> its 'ambiguous'
05/08/08 05:43:21 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:43:21 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] mickey : 207.192.209.233 : 24072
05/08/08 05:43:23 <Knot4Prophet> whether it does or not
05/08/08 05:43:26 <Severus379> many people smoke = destry themselves to a degree
05/08/08 05:43:30 <Severus379> this is not immoral
05/08/08 05:43:33 <Knot4Prophet> suicide isnt immoral, nope
05/08/08 05:43:35 <Knot4Prophet> agreed.
05/08/08 05:43:38 <Severus379> even though it goes against survival
05/08/08 05:43:43 <Knot4Prophet> not everyone else's
05/08/08 05:43:47 <Knot4Prophet> morality takes 2 remember?
05/08/08 05:43:53 <Knot4Prophet> from my first principles
05/08/08 05:43:53 <Severus379> ...sigh...
05/08/08 05:43:55 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:43:55 <choco_forever456> yes
05/08/08 05:43:59 <choco_forever456>
05/08/08 05:44:07 BEAR 999 winks at Ren
05/08/08 05:44:10 <BEAR> It takes two..
05/08/08 05:44:15 <Knot4Prophet> i've considered every deleterious human behaviour
05/08/08 05:44:21 <Knot4Prophet> b4 i ventured on with this theory
05/08/08 05:44:26 <Knot4Prophet> think up some more
05/08/08 05:44:34 <Knot4Prophet> and i'll show u how they are ambiguous
05/08/08 05:44:34 BEAR 999 snorts a rail
05/08/08 05:44:39 <Knot4Prophet> or not immoral at all
05/08/08 05:44:39 Relentless 258 is listening to Invincible No Fear - AudioTrack 02
05/08/08 05:44:45 <choco_forever456> you must be bloody good if you managed to make that girl sigh
05/08/08 05:44:46 BEAR 999 tortures a small animal
05/08/08 05:44:53 <Knot4Prophet> lol she's tough aye
05/08/08 05:44:55 <choco_forever456> she is endlesssssssssssssssssssssssss
05/08/08 05:44:56 <mickey572> wow.......knot.....such a genious
05/08/08 05:44:59 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:45:00 <Knot4Prophet> relax mick
05/08/08 05:45:04 <BEAR> genius?
05/08/08 05:45:14 <mickey572> how......oh how do you do it
05/08/08 05:45:18 <Knot4Prophet> idk
05/08/08 05:45:19 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:45:20 <Severus379> Durkheim's views on crime were a departure from conventional notions. He believed that crime is "bound up with the fundamental conditions of all social life" and serves a social function. He stated that crime implies, "not only that the way remains open to necessary change, but that in certain cases it directly proposes these changes... crime [can thus be] a useful prelude to reforms."
05/08/08 05:45:21 <BEAR> genieous?
(continued below)

_________________

05/08/08 05:45:23 <Knot4Prophet> just comes natural, mick
05/08/08 05:45:24 <choco_forever456> hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa
05/08/08 05:45:29 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:45:37 <Severus379> In this sense he saw crime as being able to release certain social tensions and so have a cleansing or purging effect in society. He further stated that "the authority which the moral conscience enjoys must not be excessive; otherwise, no-one would dare to criticize it, and it would too easily congeal into an immutable form. To make progress, individual originality must be able to express itself..
05/08/08 05:45:46 <choco_forever456> their is our ren severus
05/08/08 05:45:49 <Knot4Prophet> what constitutes "crime" isnt consistent
05/08/08 05:45:51 <choco_forever456> ladies and gentlemen
05/08/08 05:45:52 <Severus379> [even] the originality of the criminal... shall also be possible" (Durkheim, 1895).
05/08/08 05:45:53 <Severus379> here
05/08/08 05:45:55 <mickey572> you are so smart
05/08/08 05:46:03 <mickey572> goodness
05/08/08 05:46:15 <choco_forever456> ren I would employ you as my lawyer on the spot
05/08/08 05:46:16 <BEAR> Stop masturbating everytime Knot speaks, mick
05/08/08 05:46:25 <Severus379> lol choco
05/08/08 05:46:27 <Severus379> HAHA
05/08/08 05:46:30 <mickey572> oh.... sorry bear
05/08/08 05:46:30 <Severus379> that was funny
05/08/08 05:46:32 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:46:35 <BEAR> Better be.
05/08/08 05:46:42 <choco_forever456> thats me ! funny fanny
05/08/08 05:46:44 <choco_forever456> opps
05/08/08 05:46:52 <BEAR> What do you mean what constitutes a crime ain't consistent
05/08/08 05:46:57 <BEAR> waitr
05/08/08 05:47:02 <BEAR> what do you mean by consistent
05/08/08 05:47:07 <Knot4Prophet> well crime we may do, but if the morality of the 'crime' is ambiguous, then its not surprising some may do it
05/08/08 05:47:07 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:47:22 <mickey572> give me a break
05/08/08 05:47:23 <BEAR> Like yer tokin'
05/08/08 05:47:24 <Knot4Prophet> if i "steal" a loaf of bread to feed starving kids, is that a "crime"?
05/08/08 05:47:26 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 05:47:27 <BEAR> Like yer tokin'
05/08/08 05:47:29 <Knot4Prophet> not to me it aint
05/08/08 05:47:32 <Knot4Prophet> but to the law it is
05/08/08 05:47:36 <BEAR> Sure it is.
05/08/08 05:47:37 <BEAR> right
05/08/08 05:47:44 <BEAR> You just see the benefit of the crime
05/08/08 05:47:46 <Knot4Prophet> so what constitutes "crime" across cultures, is ambiguous
05/08/08 05:47:49 <Severus379> Durkheim was a strong advocate of morality in society. He believed that having good strong morals would prevent individuals from 'disintegrating'. Disintegration would happen if the collective conscience became weak. The collective conscience was a term coined by Durkheim which meant that individuals shared common beliefs and sentiments. Without this consensus or agreement on fundamental moral
05/08/08 05:47:50 Relentless 258 is listening to DJ Rankin - Oceans Apart
05/08/08 05:47:50 <Knot4Prophet> not so with 'murder'
05/08/08 05:47:55 <Knot4Prophet> maybe, with stealing
05/08/08 05:48:08 <BEAR> Unjustified killing can't be considered moral
05/08/08 05:48:11 <Severus379> issues, social solidarity would be impossible and individuals could not be bound together to form an integrated social unit. In order to prevent society from disintegrating Durkheim believed that punishment was necessary. Punishment is 'a passionate reaction of graduated intensity to offences against the collective conscience
05/08/08 05:48:13 <Severus379> here
05/08/08 05:48:15 <Severus379> I stop now
05/08/08 05:48:36 <Knot4Prophet> well the "collective consciousness" is more aware of itself now than ever b4
05/08/08 05:48:37 <BEAR> Collective conscience?
05/08/08 05:48:44 <Knot4Prophet> with communications + technology
05/08/08 05:48:44 BEAR 999 steps back
05/08/08 05:48:45 <Severus379> Unlike conservatives who believed that the harshest possible punishment should be enforced to make men moral and preserve the status quo, Durkheim believed that only the necessary relevant amount of punishment was needed to threaten men to remain moral. Therefore, he believed that punishment was necessary in order to promote social cohesion and bind individuals together.
05/08/08 05:48:50 <Knot4Prophet> u said u were done!
05/08/08 05:48:58 <BEAR> You like reading.
05/08/08 05:49:00 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:49:07 <Severus379> collective conscience = the part we share with everyone
05/08/08 05:49:11 <Severus379> like shared beliefs
05/08/08 05:49:20 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> even though the aboriginals were from a long line of sister fuckers they did not have a word that equated to "mine" off topic but nonetheless interesting
05/08/08 05:49:22 <Knot4Prophet> and conscious of each other's existence
05/08/08 05:49:22 <Severus379> I am sone now
05/08/08 05:49:27 <Severus379> done
05/08/08 05:49:40 <Knot4Prophet> it is interesting, grrr
05/08/08 05:49:50 <Knot4Prophet> "possession"
05/08/08 05:49:55 <Knot4Prophet> ownership
05/08/08 05:49:57 <Knot4Prophet> what can we own?
05/08/08 05:50:05 <Knot4Prophet> what's in our hands, is about it
05/08/08 05:50:09 <Knot4Prophet> the rest is an agreement
05/08/08 05:50:12 <Knot4Prophet> with everyone else
05/08/08 05:50:20 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> they were probably the closest to communisim as can be in humans
05/08/08 05:50:24 <Severus379> that means they had a great collective conscience
05/08/08 05:50:40 <Knot4Prophet> they also fucked incestuously aye
05/08/08 05:50:46 <Knot4Prophet> neat combo
05/08/08 05:50:53 <Knot4Prophet> perhaps there is a correlation?
05/08/08 05:50:54 <Severus379> a large part of the "I" was a collective one
05/08/08 05:50:54 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:50:57 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> they still take anything thats not nailed down
05/08/08 05:51:00 <Knot4Prophet> heh
05/08/08 05:51:08 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:51:36 <Knot4Prophet> we only need to "threaten" ppl to be moral about things that are ambiguous
05/08/08 05:51:40 <Knot4Prophet> like "drug use"
05/08/08 05:51:49 <Knot4Prophet> cuz they dont see the logic
05/08/08 05:51:54 <Knot4Prophet> with murder, we c it
05/08/08 05:51:58 <Knot4Prophet> we need no threat
05/08/08 05:52:12 <Knot4Prophet> speaking to durkheim, there
05/08/08 05:52:18 <Severus379> I pay for my tickets in the tram
05/08/08 05:52:21 <Knot4Prophet> and his flawed analysis
05/08/08 05:52:26 <Severus379> just because of the threat, knot
05/08/08 05:52:42 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> do you honestly think there would be no rise in the murder rate if there was no consequence
05/08/08 05:52:44 <Knot4Prophet> that isnt morality
05/08/08 05:52:47 <Severus379> I should pay, because public transport is a social thing and all
05/08/08 05:52:50 <Severus379> by I only do it
05/08/08 05:52:54 <Severus379> or I get punished
05/08/08 05:52:56 <Knot4Prophet> ppl enforce it all on their own, grrr
05/08/08 05:53:03 <Knot4Prophet> if i go down the street, murdering everyone i c
05/08/08 05:53:06 <Knot4Prophet> what will happen to me?
05/08/08 05:53:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i said no consequence
05/08/08 05:53:10 <Knot4Prophet> irregardless of law
05/08/08 05:53:14 <Knot4Prophet> i'll be killed.
05/08/08 05:53:23 <Severus379> with consequence he doesn't mean law
05/08/08 05:53:25 <Knot4Prophet> that's how murder = suicide
05/08/08 05:53:27 <Severus379> he means not being killed
05/08/08 05:53:38 <Severus379> or sentenced
05/08/08 05:53:42 <Knot4Prophet> there's always a consequence
05/08/08 05:53:44 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i meant NO CONSEQUENCE
05/08/08 05:53:56 <Knot4Prophet> show me a society without consequence for murder
05/08/08 05:53:56 <Severus379> like in WW2
05/08/08 05:53:59 <Knot4Prophet> one that tried it
05/08/08 05:54:01 <Knot4Prophet> ?
05/08/08 05:54:06 <Severus379> there was no consequence for murdering jews
05/08/08 05:54:09 <Severus379> so people did it
05/08/08 05:54:10 <Knot4Prophet> sure there was
05/08/08 05:54:14 <Knot4Prophet> they hid it at first
05/08/08 05:54:15 <Severus379> that would happen now, too
05/08/08 05:54:17 <BEAR> I could tell you what i think is, more or less, right but there is no reason why you should pay any attention to it - Noam Chomsky
05/08/08 05:54:19 <Knot4Prophet> first they exported them away
05/08/08 05:54:22 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not in nazi germany
05/08/08 05:54:28 <Knot4Prophet> then hitler's real plan came to fruition
05/08/08 05:54:33 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 05:54:36 <Knot4Prophet> to expunge them totally
05/08/08 05:54:38 <Severus379> there was no consequence any more
05/08/08 05:54:44 <Severus379> and people did it
05/08/08 05:54:49 <Knot4Prophet> only once he had significant military success
05/08/08 05:54:50 <Severus379> I think that's what Grrrr means
05/08/08 05:55:02 <Severus379> right?
05/08/08 05:55:02 <Knot4Prophet> ppl did it cuz they were told jews were root of all evil
05/08/08 05:55:06 <Knot4Prophet> they felt justified
05/08/08 05:55:10 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:55:10 <BEAR> Right.
05/08/08 05:55:11 <Knot4Prophet> economy was poor
05/08/08 05:55:16 <Knot4Prophet> lots of countries blamed jews
05/08/08 05:55:19 <BEAR> and gypsies
05/08/08 05:55:21 <Severus379> and they felt they were acting "moral"
05/08/08 05:55:21 <Knot4Prophet> cuz they were ppl without a nation
05/08/08 05:55:25 <BEAR> Jews + Gypsies
05/08/08 05:55:34 <BEAR> since A.D. 70
05/08/08 05:55:35 <Knot4Prophet> they felt that killing them would make the rest survive
05/08/08 05:55:38 <BEAR> scattered
05/08/08 05:55:40 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> homosexuals and cripples too
05/08/08 05:55:47 <Knot4Prophet> that was justified too
05/08/08 05:55:53 <Knot4Prophet> so they wouldnt dirty the gene pool
05/08/08 05:55:56 <Knot4Prophet> pro- survival
05/08/08 05:55:57 <Severus379> so "not killing" isn't necessarily part of the definition
05/08/08 05:56:01 <Severus379> NOT the definition
05/08/08 05:56:06 <Knot4Prophet> unjustified murder
05/08/08 05:56:09 <Knot4Prophet> is what i call murder
05/08/08 05:56:10 <Severus379> just when we will that definition it becomes part of it
05/08/08 05:56:17 <Severus379> but not the construct
05/08/08 05:56:21 <BEAR> unjustified killing?
05/08/08 05:56:23 <Severus379> you geddit now knot?
05/08/08 05:56:27 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl wouldnt do murder unless they could logically justify it
05/08/08 05:56:32 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 05:56:41 <Severus379> so DO NOT KILL is part of MOST societies
05/08/08 05:56:45 <Knot4Prophet> and most ppl cannot logically justify it
05/08/08 05:56:46 <Severus379> but not ALWAYS
05/08/08 05:56:51 <Severus379> so it is not the definition
05/08/08 05:57:00 <Severus379> it is the contents of the definition
05/08/08 05:57:00 <BEAR> Like if I choked ren to death because she couldn't breathe around my cock
05/08/08 05:57:02 <Knot4Prophet> what is not what's definition?
05/08/08 05:57:08 <BEAR> That would be justification for her husband to seek me out
05/08/08 05:57:20 BEAR 999 lays it down
05/08/08 05:57:32 <Severus379> do not kill isn't part of the universally applicable definition of morale
05/08/08 05:57:41 <Knot4Prophet> do not kill unjustiably is
05/08/08 05:57:46 <BEAR> Oh come on
05/08/08 05:57:47 <Severus379> ...sigh
05/08/08 05:57:47 <Knot4Prophet> and that's whats implied by do not kill
05/08/08 05:57:50 <Severus379> I give up
05/08/08 05:57:53 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:57:55 <Severus379> you don't get it
05/08/08 05:57:58 <Knot4Prophet> i do get it
05/08/08 05:58:03 <Severus379> no you don't
05/08/08 05:58:05 <Knot4Prophet> killing is ok if someone comes at me to kill me
05/08/08 05:58:07 <Severus379> you are a step behind
05/08/08 05:58:15 <Severus379> and you can't see it
05/08/08 05:58:23 <Knot4Prophet> if i can justify that someone may come at me, then i can justify killing them first
05/08/08 05:58:23 <Severus379> you fill that definition already
05/08/08 05:58:27 <Severus379> and can't see it
05/08/08 05:58:27 <BEAR> I wonder what the purpose of saying something like that is.
05/08/08 05:58:48 <Severus379> I think I'll stop here or I'll get aggressive
05/08/08 05:58:49 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:58:56 <BEAR> Then keep going woman!
05/08/08 05:59:01 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:59:03 <BEAR> Get aggressive
05/08/08 05:59:07 <Knot4Prophet> when we say "thou shall not kill" does that mean dont kill the dude with the knife thats trying to slaughter ur family?
05/08/08 05:59:12 <Knot4Prophet> is that what u think?
05/08/08 05:59:14 <Knot4Prophet> seriously?
05/08/08 05:59:21 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 05:59:27 <Severus379> you don't get what I think
05/08/08 05:59:31 <Knot4Prophet> so its talking bout killing, but justifiably
05/08/08 05:59:32 <Severus379> I can't seem to explain
05/08/08 05:59:38 <Knot4Prophet> dont kill unjustifiably
05/08/08 05:59:42 <Severus379> or you can't seem to understand
05/08/08 05:59:44 <Severus379> one of the two
05/08/08 05:59:47 <Severus379> probably me
05/08/08 05:59:48 <Knot4Prophet> that's ur failure, not mine
05/08/08 05:59:51 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:59:52 <Knot4Prophet> i can understand any concept
05/08/08 05:59:58 <Severus379> maybe
05/08/08 06:00:06 <Knot4Prophet> if its reasonably presented
05/08/08 06:00:06 <Severus379> but I can't explain every concept
05/08/08 06:00:08 #c17#`~#c22#Kimbyr0x-666_61630 has left
05/08/08 06:00:09 Severus379 bows out
05/08/08 06:00:09 Relentless 258 is listening to Fearless Cru - I'm Not Playing A Game
05/08/08 06:00:14 <Knot4Prophet> then u shouldnt rely on it
05/08/08 06:00:18 <BEAR> Fearless Cru?
05/08/08 06:00:26 <Severus379> I can explain it in my mother tongue
05/08/08 06:00:31 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:00:34 Knot4Prophet 000 learns german
05/08/08 06:00:35 <Knot4Prophet> brb
05/08/08 06:00:38 <BEAR> ha
05/08/08 06:00:53 <BEAR> Das gut.
05/08/08 06:00:57 <Knot4Prophet> k, sprechen de deutshcshehhshhhe?
05/08/08 06:01:17 <BEAR> ..
05/08/08 06:01:18 <Knot4Prophet> en francais?
05/08/08 06:01:27 <Severus379> ja
05/08/08 06:01:31 <Severus379> deutsch ist besser
05/08/08 06:01:34 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:01:36 <BEAR> No it's not.
05/08/08 06:01:45 <Severus379> nur für mich
05/08/08 06:01:50 <BEAR> Ok
05/08/08 06:01:59 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 06:01:59 <Severus379> Muttersprache
05/08/08 06:02:00 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> your english was fine ren
05/08/08 06:02:07 <Knot4Prophet> yo mick, wb
05/08/08 06:02:08 <BEAR> Agreed
05/08/08 06:02:09 <Severus379> obviously not
05/08/08 06:02:12 <BEAR> No it was
05/08/08 06:02:18 <BEAR> hey mickey
05/08/08 06:02:19 <Knot4Prophet> ur command of english is excellent
05/08/08 06:02:33 <BEAR> Better than mine.
05/08/08 06:02:37 <Severus379> haha
05/08/08 06:02:38 <Knot4Prophet> agreed
05/08/08 06:02:41 <Knot4Prophet> slightly
05/08/08 06:02:43 <Severus379> stop taking the mickey
05/08/08 06:02:52 <Severus379> =making fun
05/08/08 06:02:52 BEAR 999 takes it where he likes
05/08/08 06:02:56 <mickey572> what ?
05/08/08 06:02:58 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> knot is of the opinion some morals are instictive and that's the end of the story
05/08/08 06:03:06 <Severus379> taking the mickey means making fun of something
05/08/08 06:03:06 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 06:03:09 <Severus379> here anways
05/08/08 06:03:18 <mickey572> oh..........ok
05/08/08 06:03:22 <BEAR> Well I haven't been able to show Knot a situation where that wasn't the case, Grr.
05/08/08 06:03:26 <Knot4Prophet> i dont "want" to believe that morality is instinctualy, i see it
05/08/08 06:03:26 <BEAR> and I doubt you could either.
05/08/08 06:03:32 <Severus379> we have, bear
05/08/08 06:03:36 <Knot4Prophet> no u havent
05/08/08 06:03:47 Severus379 screams
05/08/08 06:03:49 <BEAR> lol
05/08/08 06:03:56 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the prison system is full of exceptions to the rule
05/08/08 06:03:57 Severus379 clutches her head
05/08/08 06:04:14 <Knot4Prophet> and so are birth deformities an exception to the 'human' rule
05/08/08 06:04:15 <Knot4Prophet> and?
05/08/08 06:04:20 <Knot4Prophet> there are no humans?
05/08/08 06:04:24 <Severus379> ...
05/08/08 06:04:33 <Knot4Prophet> we cannot generalize about humanity?
05/08/08 06:04:40 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> show me the murder gene
05/08/08 06:04:41 <Knot4Prophet> because of the few deformities?
05/08/08 06:04:48 <Severus379> we can generalise about certain definitions
05/08/08 06:04:51 <Severus379> I can anway
05/08/08 06:04:56 <Knot4Prophet> ur the one that's saying that 'murder' is instinctual, not me
05/08/08 06:04:56 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:04:57 <BEAR> Saying that there are no instinctual morals because we fuck the system of application up is flawed
05/08/08 06:05:02 <Knot4Prophet> u show me the murder gene
05/08/08 06:05:02 <Knot4Prophet> (
05/08/08 06:05:30 <Knot4Prophet> i say it isnt instinctual, so how can there be a gene for it?
05/08/08 06:05:32 <Knot4Prophet> dont be silly
05/08/08 06:05:38 BEAR 999 trys his best
05/08/08 06:05:39 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> there is no murder gene, it is not instinct
05/08/08 06:05:49 <Knot4Prophet> right, survive is instinct tho
05/08/08 06:06:00 <BEAR> Adrenaline
05/08/08 06:06:01 <Knot4Prophet> and add to that awareness and empathy, and we have morality
05/08/08 06:06:02 <BEAR> fight flight
05/08/08 06:06:02 <Severus379> I am saying that when defining moral, murder isn't necessarily included. It is more abstract than that. What knot does, is filling the abstract term and making that the definition, even though it doesn't always apply
05/08/08 06:06:10 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not so knot
05/08/08 06:06:22 <Knot4Prophet> im saying murder is the basis of instinctual morality
05/08/08 06:06:24 <Knot4Prophet> how not so?
05/08/08 06:06:38 Severus379 winces
05/08/08 06:06:44 <BEAR> Have you submitted this to meriam-webster yet
05/08/08 06:06:44 Severus379 cringes
05/08/08 06:06:47 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> there is no instincual morality
05/08/08 06:06:53 <Severus379> there is
05/08/08 06:06:55 <Knot4Prophet> is survival instinctual?
05/08/08 06:06:57 <Severus379> but it can be overcome
05/08/08 06:07:00 <BEAR> murder?
05/08/08 06:07:00 <Knot4Prophet> or do we learn that too
05/08/08 06:07:03 Knot4Prophet 000 scoffs
05/08/08 06:07:04 <BEAR> hmm
05/08/08 06:07:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it was instictual we wouldnt need morals
05/08/08 06:07:12 <Knot4Prophet> we dont "need" morals
05/08/08 06:07:14 <Knot4Prophet> we have them
05/08/08 06:07:19 <Severus379> so it isn't necessarily included in the definition of moral. Cause it can be overcome
05/08/08 06:07:26 <Knot4Prophet> only if justified
05/08/08 06:07:31 <Knot4Prophet> and then it aint murder anymore
05/08/08 06:07:33 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> why if we were instinctivly moral?
05/08/08 06:07:43 <Knot4Prophet> why what?
05/08/08 06:07:44 <BEAR> What about extreme confinment knot
05/08/08 06:07:46 Relentless 258 is listening to Fearless Cru - Hit Them Up
05/08/08 06:07:47 <BEAR> solitary confinement
05/08/08 06:07:54 <BEAR> could that be worse than murder?
05/08/08 06:07:59 <mickey572> tell me knot......what would you have done
05/08/08 06:08:04 <BEAR> say abandonment? complete?
05/08/08 06:08:14 <Knot4Prophet> we are instinctively pro-survival so we are instinctively moral, because of it
05/08/08 06:08:18 <mickey572> one day
05/08/08 06:08:21 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 06:08:24 <Knot4Prophet> idk of any such case, bear
05/08/08 06:08:33 <BEAR> and the opposite of that would be uninsticual murder
05/08/08 06:08:35 <Knot4Prophet> we'd only be guessing
05/08/08 06:08:46 <Knot4Prophet> there is no society of one
05/08/08 06:09:00 <mickey572> come on knot...........
05/08/08 06:09:14 <BEAR> instinctively prosurvival ---- Un-instinctive murder.
05/08/08 06:09:21 <mickey572> what if you were on one of those planes
05/08/08 06:09:29 <mickey572> tell me
05/08/08 06:09:29 <BEAR> You're saying that is the spectrum
05/08/08 06:09:44 <BEAR> instinctively prosurvival <--------------------------------------------------> Un-instinctive murder.
05/08/08 06:09:48 <Knot4Prophet> that's one way, sure bear
05/08/08 06:10:00 <Knot4Prophet> one dimensional, but illustrative nonetheless
05/08/08 06:10:08 <BEAR> you're welcome.
05/08/08 06:10:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> morality has never been about the individual bear, only the impact the individual has on the group
05/08/08 06:10:10 </T> unlurk just to say hi (back to sleep)
05/08/08 06:10:18 <Knot4Prophet> hey demi
05/08/08 06:10:25 <Severus379> hi demi
05/08/08 06:10:26 <BEAR> Hey, Demon, sleep well.
05/08/08 06:10:27 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:10:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> hi muppet
05/08/08 06:10:55 <mickey572> lol.......ignore it then
05/08/08 06:11:00 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 06:11:22 <Knot4Prophet> grr agrees that he doesnt murder cuz of empathy, but doesnt extend that experience to anyone else, when he assumes everyone else would murder unjustifably, unless they were "taught"
05/08/08 06:11:28 <Knot4Prophet> were u "taught" to empathize?
05/08/08 06:11:30 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:11:49 <Knot4Prophet> why do u assume no one is like u?
05/08/08 06:12:03 <Knot4Prophet> im like u, in that respect
05/08/08 06:12:05 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i have no idea why people murder knot, nor why others don't
05/08/08 06:12:09 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:12:09 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 06:12:22 Severus379 is listening to Johnny Cash - When The Man Comes Around
05/08/08 06:12:26 <mickey572> ignore..... as in ignorance
05/08/08 06:12:31 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 06:12:31 <Knot4Prophet> then u cant form an opinion on whether murder is moral or not, or instinctual or not
05/08/08 06:12:36 <Knot4Prophet> with any validity
05/08/08 06:12:54 <Knot4Prophet> silly mick, always crying for attention
05/08/08 06:13:20 <BEAR> Like we all do
05/08/08 06:13:26 <V> Later.
05/08/08 06:13:27 <BEAR> just.. more pathetically
05/08/08 06:13:28 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i do know that generally speaking people will do what they are allowed to get away with
05/08/08 06:13:29 <BEAR> Later
05/08/08 06:13:29 V-Loc (Blah)626_11995 has left
05/08/08 06:13:46 <Knot4Prophet> i dont extend that to murder
05/08/08 06:13:54 <BEAR> I'd extend that to capitalism
05/08/08 06:13:59 <Knot4Prophet> and i dont include most crimes among "instinctual morality"
05/08/08 06:14:08 <BEAR> extreme
05/08/08 06:14:13 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if there were no consequence for murder it would happen more often
05/08/08 06:14:14 <Severus379> you read Kant's view?
05/08/08 06:14:17 <Knot4Prophet> so whatever ur talking bout 'getting away with' isnt in my sphere of instinctual morality
05/08/08 06:14:25 <BEAR> Emmanuel Kunt
05/08/08 06:14:27 <Knot4Prophet> u dont know that grr
05/08/08 06:14:33 <Knot4Prophet> show me a society without consequence
05/08/08 06:14:35 <Severus379> aye, him
05/08/08 06:14:37 <Knot4Prophet> ur just hypothesizing
05/08/08 06:14:57 <Knot4Prophet> using unreal examples serves no one
05/08/08 06:15:02 <BEAR> "I am not concerned with what I should do as much as I am concern with what i should know is God's will for me to do" - Kunt
05/08/08 06:15:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it is a fair assumption based on human behaviour
05/08/08 06:15:05 <Knot4Prophet> like hitchers' 'society of one'
05/08/08 06:15:12 <Knot4Prophet> i dont think its fair
05/08/08 06:15:19 <Knot4Prophet> based on history and population
05/08/08 06:15:23 <Knot4Prophet> and biology
05/08/08 06:15:39 <Severus379> "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."
05/08/08 06:15:43 <BEAR> I started to read fear an trembling and listend to a lecture on Emmanuel Kant and he is very lacking in a lot of ways
05/08/08 06:15:45 <Knot4Prophet> ppl 'get away' with things that are ambiguously immoral
05/08/08 06:15:55 <BEAR> he developed good ground for his contemporaries and betters.
05/08/08 06:15:57 <BEAR> not much else.
05/08/08 06:16:07 <Knot4Prophet> so brushing my teeth should be a universal law?
05/08/08 06:16:08 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:16:12 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> some people get away with murder
05/08/08 06:16:14 <Severus379> aye
05/08/08 06:16:20 <Severus379> everyone should do it
05/08/08 06:16:22 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:16:29 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl dont even attempt it, grr
05/08/08 06:16:32 <Knot4Prophet> nor would they
05/08/08 06:16:35 <Knot4Prophet> law or no
05/08/08 06:16:43 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> how do you know that?
05/08/08 06:16:46 <Knot4Prophet> the consequence is always there, and so is the empathy
05/08/08 06:16:58 <Knot4Prophet> because u can empathize and not murder, is my example
05/08/08 06:17:02 <Knot4Prophet> the same applies to me
05/08/08 06:17:04 <Knot4Prophet> and to sev
05/08/08 06:17:06 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> what becomes justifiable murder?
05/08/08 06:17:11 <Knot4Prophet> y should i not extend that to others?
05/08/08 06:17:15 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> an argument?
05/08/08 06:17:25 <Knot4Prophet> when i logically deduce that survival is threatened
05/08/08 06:17:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> drinking someone elses drink?
05/08/08 06:17:34 <Knot4Prophet> murder is then justiable
05/08/08 06:17:39 <Knot4Prophet> i cannnot justify that, nope
05/08/08 06:17:44 <Knot4Prophet> can u?
05/08/08 06:17:47 <Severus379> here: principle of universalization, one that intends to set the conditions for impartial judgment insofar as it "constrains all affected to adopt the perspectives of all others in the balancing of interests"
05/08/08 06:18:06 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> but peole kill for the reasons i have just mentioned and feel it's justified
05/08/08 06:18:21 <Knot4Prophet> 99.9% dont
05/08/08 06:18:27 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout them
05/08/08 06:18:37 <Knot4Prophet> the bulk of humanity
05/08/08 06:18:42 <Severus379> 99% don't = it isn't the definition
05/08/08 06:18:43 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i'm talking about everyone
05/08/08 06:18:54 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> humans
05/08/08 06:18:57 <Knot4Prophet> ur talking bout some few, and pretending that is everyone
05/08/08 06:18:57 <Severus379> 99% means that it almost always is contents of the definition
05/08/08 06:19:05 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout the bulk, and pretending that is everyone
05/08/08 06:19:08 <Severus379> but it isn't it
05/08/08 06:19:10 <Severus379> sigh
05/08/08 06:19:14 Severus379 bows out again
05/08/08 06:19:20 <Knot4Prophet> the rest is negligible
05/08/08 06:19:20 <choco_forever456>
05/08/08 06:19:35 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 06:19:36 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no it's not and that is your mistake
05/08/08 06:19:44 <Knot4Prophet> how is it my mistake?
05/08/08 06:19:44 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 06:19:47 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 06:19:50 <Knot4Prophet> is murder successful?
05/08/08 06:19:54 <Severus379> it means it's not exact
05/08/08 06:19:56 <Knot4Prophet> has population gone down?
05/08/08 06:19:59 <Knot4Prophet> do most of us murder?
05/08/08 06:20:00 <Severus379> cause it doesn't always happen
05/08/08 06:20:01 <Knot4Prophet> nope.
05/08/08 06:20:05 <Severus379> means it's not exact
05/08/08 06:20:09 <Knot4Prophet> i never said it was
05/08/08 06:20:14 <Knot4Prophet> i allow for deformities
05/08/08 06:20:16 <Knot4Prophet> so does biology
05/08/08 06:20:17 <Severus379> like a mathematical law with somethign missing
05/08/08 06:20:21 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the exception to the rule is what makes the rule open to interpretation
05/08/08 06:20:28 <Knot4Prophet> all biology doesnt want to 'survive' either, but most does
05/08/08 06:20:28 <Severus379> or like when you give only one side of the triangle
05/08/08 06:20:31 <Severus379> and one angle
05/08/08 06:20:46 <Knot4Prophet> rules are about explaining phenomena
05/08/08 06:20:47 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> deformities can be explained genetically
05/08/08 06:20:47 <Severus379> it sometimes applies and sometimes not
05/08/08 06:21:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> murderes can't
05/08/08 06:21:09 <Knot4Prophet> could they be explained genetically 1200 years ago?
05/08/08 06:21:17 <Knot4Prophet> does that mean they didnt exist, then?
05/08/08 06:21:23 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> what difference does that make?
05/08/08 06:21:28 <Knot4Prophet> did the electron not exist then, either?
05/08/08 06:21:43 <Knot4Prophet> ur saying that because they can be explained, that they are valid
05/08/08 06:21:47 <Knot4Prophet> whereas murder isnt
05/08/08 06:21:53 <Knot4Prophet> cuz it cant be explained, correct?
05/08/08 06:22:00 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 06:22:03 <Knot4Prophet> not u, him
05/08/08 06:22:10 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:22:15 <Knot4Prophet> he said 'murders cant'
05/08/08 06:22:17 <Knot4Prophet> see that?
05/08/08 06:22:17 <Severus379> oh, yeah it might be correct for him
05/08/08 06:22:19 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:22:31 <Knot4Prophet> so because we cant explain it today means it dont exist?
05/08/08 06:22:35 <Knot4Prophet> come now
05/08/08 06:22:40 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> murder in not a genetic condition, it is choice pure and simple
05/08/08 06:22:52 <Knot4Prophet> maybe ppl thought that about deformities too
05/08/08 06:22:55 <Knot4Prophet> back in the day
05/08/08 06:23:05 <Knot4Prophet> they wanted to be deformed
05/08/08 06:23:07 <Knot4Prophet> eh?
05/08/08 06:23:15 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 06:23:16 <Severus379> or their parents cursed them
05/08/08 06:23:44 <Knot4Prophet> we all understand surivival and non surivival, we all have awareness, and that is the source of morality
05/08/08 06:23:53 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> there are psycological conditions that compel peaople to murder but in the end it still comes down to choice
05/08/08 06:23:55 <Knot4Prophet> without those, there is no morality
05/08/08 06:24:06 <Knot4Prophet> a brain tumor is a choice?
05/08/08 06:24:09 <Knot4Prophet> since when
05/08/08 06:24:12 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666>
05/08/08 06:24:18 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> lag
05/08/08 06:24:26 <Knot4Prophet> smooth on this end
05/08/08 06:24:57 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> insane lag
05/08/08 06:25:01 <Knot4Prophet> ...
05/08/08 06:25:02 <Knot4Prophet> ...
05/08/08 06:25:02 <Severus379> okay knot
05/08/08 06:25:03 <Knot4Prophet> ...
05/08/08 06:25:09 <Severus379> I found the definition of definition
05/08/08 06:25:11 <Severus379> look
05/08/08 06:25:13 <Severus379> A definition is a statement of the meaning of a word or phrase. The term to be defined is known as the definiendum (Latin: that which is to be defined). The words which define it are known as the definiens (Latin: that which is doing the defining)
05/08/08 06:25:27 <Severus379> An extensional definition, also called a denotative definition, of a concept or term specifies its extension. It is, a list naming every object that is a member of a specific set.
05/08/08 06:25:33 <Severus379> focus on EVERY
05/08/08 06:25:36 <Severus379> means I win
05/08/08 06:25:49 Severus379 quickly goes
05/08/08 06:25:52 <Knot4Prophet> lmao
05/08/08 06:26:01 <Severus379> see?
05/08/08 06:26:04 <Severus379> EVERY
05/08/08 06:26:10 <Severus379> EEEEVEEERYYYYYYYY
05/08/08 06:26:13 <Severus379> not 99%
05/08/08 06:26:19 <Knot4Prophet> to define something means to explain it
05/08/08 06:26:27 ¤torquf¤141 calls Seve so they can pull a Pan
05/08/08 06:26:27 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 06:26:33 <Knot4Prophet> book = magazine? yes or no
05/08/08 06:26:33 <Severus379> that's an EXPLANATION
05/08/08 06:26:45 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i seriously doubt anyone has commited a murder because they are genetically compelled
05/08/08 06:27:02 Severus379 won
05/08/08 06:27:08 <choco_forever456> lol
05/08/08 06:27:12 <Knot4Prophet> i never said they are genetically compelled to commit murder
05/08/08 06:27:16 <choco_forever456> shag her to silence knot
05/08/08 06:27:20 <choco_forever456> jk ren
05/08/08 06:27:21 <choco_forever456> ;p
05/08/08 06:27:27 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> gg volleyball
05/08/08 06:27:32 <Knot4Prophet> does the term "people" include fetuses, sev?
05/08/08 06:27:33 <Severus379> you said it's 99% therefore you based a DEFINITION on that number
05/08/08 06:27:36 <Knot4Prophet> yes or no
05/08/08 06:27:37 <Severus379> and that is WRONG
05/08/08 06:27:42 Severus379 won
05/08/08 06:27:43 <Knot4Prophet> does it?
05/08/08 06:27:46 <Knot4Prophet> yes or no
05/08/08 06:27:49 Severus379 won
05/08/08 06:27:49 <BEAR> Knot, what do you think of fluoride?
05/08/08 06:27:55 <Knot4Prophet> its poison
05/08/08 06:27:58 <Knot4Prophet> yes or no, stef?
05/08/08 06:28:01 <choco_forever456> it can be toxic
05/08/08 06:28:04 <Severus379> yes or no what?
05/08/08 06:28:11 <Knot4Prophet> does the term "people" include fetuses, sev?
05/08/08 06:28:17 <BEAR> What do you think of it being in tap water
05/08/08 06:28:25 <Severus379> erm...
05/08/08 06:28:32 <Severus379> in some societies it does
05/08/08 06:28:38 <Severus379> and in others it doesn't
05/08/08 06:28:55 <Knot4Prophet> so what constitutes 'people' is not necessarily complete
05/08/08 06:29:02 <Severus379> you can determine a moral standard by looking how certain groups react to abortion
05/08/08 06:29:18 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 06:29:26 <Severus379> you are not winning this with that shite
05/08/08 06:29:28 <Knot4Prophet> and i also said that murder is not seen in ALL cultures
05/08/08 06:29:32 <Knot4Prophet> every single one
05/08/08 06:29:36 <Severus379> yup
05/08/08 06:29:40 <Knot4Prophet> its taboo
05/08/08 06:29:43 <Knot4Prophet> in all
05/08/08 06:29:43 <Severus379> so it isn't part of the definition
05/08/08 06:29:47 <Knot4Prophet> so it is
05/08/08 06:29:47 <Severus379> of moral
05/08/08 06:29:52 <Knot4Prophet> its in all cultures
05/08/08 06:29:53 <Severus379> it can't be
05/08/08 06:29:56 <Knot4Prophet> the taboo against it
05/08/08 06:29:58 <Severus379> definition means ALL
05/08/08 06:30:00 <Knot4Prophet> so its primal
05/08/08 06:30:01 #c8#U#c1#2#c8#ME#c1#2#c8#U#c7#131_14297 (142.162.159.179) (DSL 12 files) has entered
05/08/08 06:30:01 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] U2ME2U : 142.162.159.179 : 8708
05/08/08 06:30:02 <Severus379> EVERY aspect
05/08/08 06:30:04 <Knot4Prophet> all cultures, yup
05/08/08 06:30:06 <Knot4Prophet> every one
05/08/08 06:30:08 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 06:30:11 <Severus379> ?
05/08/08 06:30:12 <Severus379> NO!
05/08/08 06:30:17 <Knot4Prophet> yup, they all agree that unjustifiable murder is wrong
05/08/08 06:30:20 <Knot4Prophet> show me where they dont
05/08/08 06:30:23 <Knot4Prophet> list some
05/08/08 06:30:25 <Severus379> you are just trying to confuse me
05/08/08 06:30:28 Severus379 turns away
05/08/08 06:30:28 <Knot4Prophet> loll
05/08/08 06:30:37 <Knot4Prophet> yo u2 wb
05/08/08 06:30:43 <c8> hey knot
05/08/08 06:30:47 <Knot4Prophet> hows things?
05/08/08 06:30:51 The_Art_Of_Insane_skippin'...133_58756 (82.29.125.231) (Cable 6 files) has entered
05/08/08 06:30:51 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] The_Art_Of_Insane_skippin'... : 82.29.125.231 : 6664
05/08/08 06:30:54 <Knot4Prophet> wb arty
05/08/08 06:30:56 <c8> great
05/08/08 06:30:59 <c8> and you
05/08/08 06:30:59 <Knot4Prophet> awesome
05/08/08 06:31:04 <Knot4Prophet> great here too thanx
05/08/08 06:31:06 <c8> kewl
05/08/08 06:31:14 <c8> whats the weather like there today
05/08/08 06:31:16 <The_Art_Of_Insane_skippin'...133> ta
05/08/08 06:31:25 <Severus379> well I'm off
05/08/08 06:31:26 <Knot4Prophet> cloudy with likely showers again today
05/08/08 06:31:30 <Severus379> knowing that I won
05/08/08 06:31:33 <Knot4Prophet> hey thanx for the chat, sev
05/08/08 06:31:35 <Severus379> so I'm off
05/08/08 06:31:36 <c8> same sort of thing here too
05/08/08 06:31:41 <Severus379> was nice, knot
05/08/08 06:31:43 <c8> l8r sevrus
05/08/08 06:31:44 <Severus379> cause I won
05/08/08 06:31:47 <Knot4Prophet> the one who declares winning first is the one who is usually the loser
05/08/08 06:31:53 <Severus379> see you, me
05/08/08 06:31:53 <Knot4Prophet> 99.9% of the time
05/08/08 06:31:55 <Severus379>
05/08/08 06:31:58 <choco_forever456> yes you did
05/08/08 06:32:03 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 06:32:07 <choco_forever456> you are our fav ren
05/08/08 06:32:10 <choco_forever456> you too knot
05/08/08 06:32:13 <choco_forever456> lulz
05/08/08 06:32:16 <Severus379> 99.9% means it's not part of a definition
05/08/08 06:32:18 Knot4Prophet 000 rolls eyes
05/08/08 06:32:23 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 06:32:25 <Severus379> I'm off
05/08/08 06:32:33 Severus379 is off, head high
05/08/08 06:32:34 <Knot4Prophet> well ur among the ones who are 'losers' for declaring a win
05/08/08 06:32:38 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 06:32:40 <Knot4Prophet> enjoy
05/08/08 06:32:42 <BEAR> flouride and aspartame are poisons
05/08/08 06:32:45 <BEAR> right?
05/08/08 06:32:46 <choco_forever456> yees
05/08/08 06:32:48 <Knot4Prophet> aye
05/08/08 06:32:48 <torquf> off, huh? that explains the smell
05/08/08 06:32:51 <torquf> : )>
05/08/08 06:32:51 <choco_forever456> in certain amounts
05/08/08 06:32:58 <BEAR> Why is it in my water+drinks
05/08/08 06:33:00 <Knot4Prophet> lol fuq, 'mornin
05/08/08 06:33:04 <BEAR> Hey fuk
05/08/08 06:33:05 <choco_forever456> cos they are jerks
05/08/08 06:33:09 <BEAR> hm
05/08/08 06:33:15 <torquf> hey Knot
05/08/08 06:33:18 <torquf> hey Bear
05/08/08 06:33:19 <BEAR> What purpose does flouride serve in water
05/08/08 06:33:20 <BEAR> and
05/08/08 06:33:24 <BEAR> how do I get it out of my water
05/08/08 06:33:26 BEAR 999 looks at knot
05/08/08 06:33:36 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 06:33:36 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] mickey : 207.192.209.233 : 3593
05/08/08 06:33:40 <choco_forever456> I had 2 coleagues working on water hygiene and they were testing samples of water
05/08/08 06:34:00 <choco_forever456> they said that if the population would know whats in it , it would create panik
05/08/08 06:34:09 <choco_forever456> but thats Romania
05/08/08 06:34:13 <choco_forever456> dunno about Canada
05/08/08 06:34:18 <Knot4Prophet> when u can show me that survival isnt instinctual, i'll believe u that morality isnt either, sev. and when grr can show me y we should generalize from exceptions, which is fallacious, i'll agree with him, too



The data for murders in Canada shows a rate of 1.9 murders per 100 000 population which means that 99.9981% of people did not commit murder. If the data were a normal distribution (and im not saying that they are) and one was to employ standard deviation as a measure of the spread of data (as Grrr did) one would find that this 99.9981% of people who do not murder covers not one but FOUR standard deviations (four standard deviations from the mean of a normal distribution include 99.994% of data). This makes the number of people who actually murder statistically insignificant. Grrr cannot hope to use standard deviation of the population who do and don't commit murder as any type of argument in favour of a statistical correlation between humans and murdering. 99.9981% don't murder. Statistics support that humans are not murderers.

Sev argues that because "instinctual morality" does not include every single person, that "instinctual morality" for the 99.9981% of people is somehow flawed. Sev's first statment, at the outset of the argument, was that "all morality is learned" yet we can all be sure that some people who are exposed to teachings of morality do not "learn" it, which means that her statement "all morality is learned" also fails her own test of what is definitive of a group. Surely she cannot hope to hold my statement that "some morality is instinctual" to a higher standard of "definitiveness" than does she of her own statements. Yet this was her basis for "winning" the argument, because she wished that exceptions break the rule, which they don't, especially when statistically insignificant. So, Sev, when I said that people in arguments who declare themselves the winner, usually aren't, this is borne out by your example.


Grrrr says that because some people murder others proves that none of the other 99.9981% of people could know instinctively that it is "wrong" (anti-survival) to murder. Less than 2 people in 100 000 (in Canada) murder someone, annually. Grrr also claims that morality is "learned."

My example using Sev's statement shows that some people exposed to teachings of morality do not "learn" it. Where then does these people's, these murderers'(for example), morality come from? If they see no morality at all, no right or wrong, then they didn't "learn" anything. If they do see right and wrong, just it differs from the 99.9981% (for murder for example), and they didn't "learn" this anomalous morality, from where did they get it? If Sev wants to limit her statement that "all morality is learned" by applying it only to those who actually learned it and discluding the rest, she fails her own test of validity because I, too, can apply "instinctive morality" to only those who have the instinct (99.9981%)

If Sev and Grrr wish to apply exceptions in order to invalidate my assertion that morality is instinctual, they are, at the same time, invalidating their own assertions that morality is learned. Why don't some people learn it? Who cares? They are statistically insignificant, too. So barring all other data, their initial assertion that morality is learned, based on their own criteria, are no more or less valid than my own assertion that (some) morality is instinctual.

I then went on to support my argument that the behaviour more closely allied with survival/nonsurvival is the behaviour more closely associated with instinct. I supported this argument in multiple ways.

First I gave the preconditions for morality to exist: Multiple Entities, Life/Death, Awareness.

Secondly, I distinguished between "instinctual morality" and "ambiguous morality."

Thirdly, I examined all cultures for their rules on "murder" and Sev and Grrr could provide not one culture who promoted (unjustifiable) murder.

Finally, I extrapolated from their point of view, reductio ad absurdum, that if murder were truly statistically significant, the human population couldn't logically have increased so successfully.

Looking at historical figures we see estimates of World Population in 1750 to be around 800 million people. Compare that to now, 250 years later, and we see almost TEN TIMES that population, now. If murderers were statistically significant (which I've already proven they aren't using statistics) then we surely couldn't expect such an explosion in human population during periods which covered hundreds of wars (i.e. includes ambiguous but justifiable murders as well as unjustified murders).


Fallacy:
There is no alternative (False Dilemma)

The assertion that there is no alternative is an example of the false dichotomy taken to its ultimate extreme, in which the alternatives are reduced to one, the proposal of the speaker. Of course the speaker does not believe there are no alternatives otherwise he would not bother to argue the point; rather he opposes the alternatives and seeks to dismiss them by denying their existence.

This fallacy is the failing of both their arguments. They steadfastly claim that all morality is purely learned behaviour, allowing for no alternative, when one may exist.

What is particularly galling about Sev and Grrr's position, is that not only can they not support the assertion that "all morality is learned" and therefore not instinctual, they nonetheless assert that they absolutely know this is a fact.

There is already a basis for my assertion that some human behaviour is instinctual, pre-existing in other human behaviours which are known to be instinctual. Sex is a prime example of instinctual behaviour. We do not need to "learn" how to do it. My assertion that some morality (also behaviour) is instinctual and is supported, in part, by this alone. Still, I do not rule out morality that is learned, and I clearly distinguish morality that is instinctual from morality that is learned (ambiguous) by aligning the morality/immorality with survival/non-survival. The more obvious is the link between behaviour and survival, the more likely that this behaviour is treated similarly across all cultures, the more likely that this behaviour is instinctual.

When 2 people in 100 000 in Canada murder someone, it is not statistically significant. It is statistically negligible by any statistical standards. Because there exist people who do not possess instinctual morality does not invalidate the generalization that morality is instinctual. If it does, then their statement that "all morality is learned" is equally invalid, because all exposed to the teachings of morality do not learn it. Whatever method Sev and Grrr would like to employ to disregard the exceptions to their generalization that morality is learned, I too will apply to the exceptions that (some) morality is instinctual.

Grrr says that people do not murder because they fear the consequences, yet he himself admits that his reasoning for not murdering is not because he fears consequences. He claims his reason for not murdering people is because he can "empathize" with them, which is an innate ability based on awareness, not learned. I agree that he does not murder because of this. I too do not murder because of this. Yet for some reason, in order to justify his claim that morality is learned, even though his morality for the most important (egregious) factor in morality - murder, Grr suggests his isn't based on anything learned (empathy), yet somehow everyone else's morality regarding murder IS based on learned morality. Utter nonsense. I can understand a person not expecting everyone else to be just like themselves but there is no basis for assuming that NO ONE else is like themselves.

Sev and Grrr's argument both rest on exceptions to instinctual morality. I've shown exceptions to "learned morality" which clearly defeat their own argument against me. If they tried to say "all morality which exists is learned" I would just mirror the statement and say "some morality which exists is instinctual" with both parties reducing their exceptions to negligibility. But for them both to be so insistent that morality is learned without supporting the claim and even admitting to facts which disprove it as Grrr re: empathy and Sev's own contradiction:

05/08/08 02:39:29 <BUSTA> you are NOT born with morals or values
05/08/08 02:39:33 <BUSTA> you must learn both
05/08/08 02:39:37 <Severus379> of course
05/08/08 02:39:43 <BUSTA> they are simple things but you must be taught them
05/08/08 02:39:49 <Severus379> I know


05/08/08 04:56:14 <Severus379> course there are instintual morals, but they don't necessarily determine the whole term morality


You are exactly right, Sev, in the latter statement. That statement alone is in perfect agreement with my thesis, that "some" (not all) morality is instinctual.

One final thought. Humans instinctively have sex, procreate. Because some do not have sex does this mean that sex isn't instinctual? Lol. Certainly not.

_________________

Okay, let's start this from scratch.

We are trying to define "moral" and "morality". Define, in this case means: to state exactly the meaning of a word or phrase (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Oxford University Press. Fifth Edition, 1995, p.294). While Knot has attempted to explain, I attempt to define. Explain something means to give or be a reason for sth; to account for sth (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Oxford University Press. Fifth Edition, 1995, p.389).

Definitions attempt to be universally applicable, whereas explanations illustrate.

Anyway. Moral.

It is difficult to define, because it is a theoretical term. One could say, that moral is the entirety of binding conventions and ethical norms which regulate interpersonal relationships. It is a system, which regulates social life.

It is based on the particular tradition, religion and form of society. Knot is convinced that is based on (mainly) instincts which I have seen no proof of.

Let's see.

The code in which we can see that moral in society is enhanced is acknowledgement and disacknowledgement. Or as Knot put it, right and wrong.

Of course, each group of people, each society has their own ideas of morality. What the mafia considers wrong is right to other groups of people and vice versa. Nothing to do with instinct, right?

And which instinct exactly is the one that determines morality? Knot thinks survival. Possibly yes, possibly no. So many things are considered immoral or wrong, are disacknowledged that have nothing to do with survival. Smacking? Time-Outs? Leaving a baby to cry? Stealing copyright? Being an atheist? Or a muslim? What does that have to do with instinct and survival? Sexual instincts tell us to breed, to survive, and yet, Catholics think it is immoral for a priest to do so. If we can overcome sexual instincts in defining morality, we can overcome the instinct to survive, too. Hence, it cannot be the "definition", not strictly speaking. The Koran states on averagely every third page that non-believers shall be murdered. This is considered "moral".

Basically, all human action that is NOT disacknowledged, not punished, sanctioned, does not cause outrage, disgust, etc, can be considered "moral". All behaviour that is sanctioned, considered wrong, causes moral outrage, etc, is immoral. The morality of a society can be best measured by what is being punished.

So, if the moral code is right/wrong, surely moral and immoral actions exceed instinctual aspects? Are they even the main aspect? I am not sure

To the second thing. "Morality is learnt". I do still stand by that statement. Wherever we live, there will be a huge and complicated "right and wrong" system and we have to learn it. What is right in one place, is wrong in another. Just take the English manners compared to American ones

So, all in all, we do have to learn the moral codes. Few are engraved by instincts, I will admit that. Like "do not kill". However, if you want to be a "made man" in the Mafia, you have to kill someone and it is immoral not to do so, right? Some societies think killing is the right thing to do, take the death penalty. Yes, people who carry it out do feel righteous, but essentially, they are taking someone's life and going against the instincts?

One other thing that doesn't quite make sense... If only an insignificant number of people murders, logic would dictate that only a small number of people get murdered, right? And that only a small number of people come personally in contact with murder.

But morality is based on survival instincts and "do not kill?"? How is that possible?

We talk about morals and moral morality all the time, but hardly anyone has anything to do with murder? Why? Because "moral" is much more than that. "Survival" has actually become as insignificant to "morality" as murder is to humanity. Statistically.

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And he comes to the conclusion:
His mishap was an illusion,
for, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.

Morgenstern Gallow Songs