An interesting discussion regarding the instiinctuality of morality came up in Debait recently, so I've included a log of the discussion, and added some final points at the end. Let me begin by saying that NO ONE can say with absolute certainty that morality is learned or instinctual. What we can do is look for and compare to human behaviours which are instinctual and derive from that a basis to extrapolate to other "moral" behaviours. The discussion began with Busta and Severus agreeing that all morality is learned.
05/08/08 02:39:29 <BUSTA> you are NOT born with morals or values
05/08/08 02:39:33 <BUSTA> you must learn both
05/08/08 02:39:37 <Severus379> of course
05/08/08 02:39:43 <BUSTA> they are simple things but you must be taught them
05/08/08 02:39:49 <Severus379> I know
05/08/08 02:39:52 <BUSTA> you can never BE EXSPECTED to know
05/08/08 02:39:59 <Severus379> of course not
05/08/08 02:40:16 <BUSTA> if you were born with morals and alues they wouldnt be so elastic across humans kind
05/08/08 02:40:31 <BUSTA> people make this mistake though
05/08/08 02:40:35 <BUSTA> they assume musch
* * *
05/08/08 04:35:26 <Knot4Prophet> and i saw u and busta talking bout how morality is learned earlier, and i disagree
05/08/08 04:35:42 <Knot4Prophet> the closer that morality aligns with pure survival, the more it is instinctual
05/08/08 04:35:50 <Severus379> I know you think that
05/08/08 04:35:57 <Knot4Prophet> i can prove it
05/08/08 04:36:02 <Severus379> I still think there is only one universal moral
05/08/08 04:36:08 <Severus379> incest taboo
05/08/08 04:36:18 <Knot4Prophet> death = wrong, survive = right
05/08/08 04:36:18 <Severus379> all the others are rather flexible
05/08/08 04:36:22 <Knot4Prophet> that's morality
05/08/08 04:36:28 <Severus379> no it isn't
05/08/08 04:36:29 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:36:30 <Knot4Prophet> yup
05/08/08 04:36:33 <Severus379> bit simple, that
05/08/08 04:36:37 <Knot4Prophet> all cultures agree about murder
05/08/08 04:36:45 <Knot4Prophet> they dont all agree about incest, to the same degree
05/08/08 04:36:59 <mickey572> what ?
05/08/08 04:37:04 <mickey572> incest ?
05/08/08 04:37:04 <Knot4Prophet> we all value life, cuz we're biological and main command to all biology = survive!
05/08/08 04:37:11 <mickey572> good grief
05/08/08 04:37:17 <Knot4Prophet> we have awareness, so we can identify with others
05/08/08 04:37:25 <Knot4Prophet> those are the requirements for instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:37:36 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 04:37:36 <Knot4Prophet> awareness, biology and the command: survive!
05/08/08 04:37:51 <Severus379> it's not as simple as that though
05/08/08 04:37:56 <Knot4Prophet> oh but it is
05/08/08 04:37:57 <Severus379> it's kinda raw
05/08/08 04:38:11 <Knot4Prophet> i've worked it from first principles
05/08/08 04:38:16 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 04:38:20 <Severus379> so have I
05/08/08 04:38:21 <Knot4Prophet> beginnging with a universe of one entity
05/08/08 04:38:25 <Knot4Prophet> and moving from there, to 2
05/08/08 04:38:28 <Knot4Prophet> when morality begins
05/08/08 04:38:40 <Severus379> when there are two
05/08/08 04:38:44 <Severus379> morality begins
05/08/08 04:38:47 <Knot4Prophet> if no one could kill/hurt anyone else, there would be no morality
05/08/08 04:38:49 <Knot4Prophet> right
05/08/08 04:38:58 <Severus379> or if no one WOULD
05/08/08 04:39:04 <Severus379> then we wouldn't know
05/08/08 04:39:08 <Knot4Prophet> so survival is a factor in morality
05/08/08 04:39:10 <Severus379> with killing, maybe
05/08/08 04:39:18 <Knot4Prophet> as are separate entities who live then die
05/08/08 04:39:19 <Severus379> survival is one factor, yes
05/08/08 04:39:31 <Severus379> but then, there is the altruistic suicide
05/08/08 04:39:35 <Severus379> highly moral
05/08/08 04:39:39 <Severus379> mass suicide
05/08/08 04:39:45 <Knot4Prophet> that's the basis for a soul
05/08/08 04:39:48 <Severus379> and they think they act upon moral
05/08/08 04:39:53 <Severus379> it isn't as easy
05/08/08 04:39:56 <Knot4Prophet> humans overcome biology's command to 'survive'
05/08/08 04:40:01 <Knot4Prophet> other biology doesn't
05/08/08 04:40:01 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 04:40:13 <Severus379> the definition of moral has also overcome that instinctt
05/08/08 04:40:16 <Severus379> just as humans have
05/08/08 04:40:18 <Severus379> simple
05/08/08 04:40:24 <Knot4Prophet> thats the basis for a "will" apart from the biology itself
05/08/08 04:40:31 <Knot4Prophet> which has its own will, "survive"
05/08/08 04:40:46 <BEAR> Just link her the essay
05/08/08 04:40:52 <V> Hey, Bear.
05/08/08 04:40:53 BEAR 999 just walked in
05/08/08 04:40:55 <BEAR> Hey, V
05/08/08 04:40:58 <Knot4Prophet> suicide sets the table for a will at cross purposes to biology
05/08/08 04:41:03 <BEAR> How ya doin, O.G?
05/08/08 04:41:10 <Knot4Prophet> for the feast of freedom?
05/08/08 04:41:14 <Knot4Prophet> stupid fucking metaphors
05/08/08 04:41:15 <BEAR> So no animals commit suicide?
05/08/08 04:41:18 <Knot4Prophet> rarely
05/08/08 04:41:19 <Relentless> bear!!!!!
05/08/08 04:41:21 <Knot4Prophet> not like we do
05/08/08 04:41:24 <BEAR> I disagree
05/08/08 04:41:26 <Severus379> QUOTE: humans overcome biology's command to 'survive' = humans can define moral in a way that has overcome this instinct
05/08/08 04:41:26 <Knot4Prophet> do u know of any?
05/08/08 04:41:28 <Knot4Prophet> list them
05/08/08 04:41:36 <BEAR> I've heard tell of animals that "give up"
05/08/08 04:41:49 <BEAR> Say when they are moved drastically or their owners perish
05/08/08 04:41:55 <BEAR> They stop eating
05/08/08 04:41:57 <Knot4Prophet> idk any that have
05/08/08 04:41:57 <Severus379> we are not talking animals
05/08/08 04:41:58 <BEAR> drinking
05/08/08 04:42:01 <Severus379> I was talking humans
05/08/08 04:42:02 <Knot4Prophet> not one
05/08/08 04:42:08 Relentless 258 is listening to Dancing DJs - Right Beside You
05/08/08 04:42:08 <Knot4Prophet> i just heard ppl say it, but idk any
05/08/08 04:42:13 <Severus379> yeah, and is that immoral?
05/08/08 04:42:13 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:42:14 <Knot4Prophet> i know tons of ppl that committed suicide
05/08/08 04:42:15 <Knot4Prophet> do u?
05/08/08 04:42:16 <BEAR> i heard tell
05/08/08 04:42:17 <Severus379> stopping to drink?
05/08/08 04:42:22 <Knot4Prophet> i know them personally, i mean
05/08/08 04:42:26 <BEAR> Not "tons" but yeah
05/08/08 04:42:28 <Severus379> I knew one
05/08/08 04:42:30 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:42:36 <Knot4Prophet> my godmother, in fact!
05/08/08 04:42:37 <V> Doing alright.
05/08/08 04:42:37 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:42:40 <BEAR> Good man
05/08/08 04:42:48 <Knot4Prophet> my fucking godmother committed suicide
05/08/08 04:42:49 <BEAR> How'd she go?
05/08/08 04:42:54 <Knot4Prophet> pills od'd
05/08/08 04:42:57 <BEAR> aye
05/08/08 04:42:58 <BEAR> fav.
05/08/08 04:42:59 <Knot4Prophet> left a note too, i believe
05/08/08 04:43:04 <BEAR> Wow.. bold
05/08/08 04:43:06 <Knot4Prophet> the details are murky
05/08/08 04:43:10 <BEAR> I dunno would you leave a note?
05/08/08 04:43:14 <Knot4Prophet> she was screwing around on husband with a black guy
05/08/08 04:43:16 <BEAR> I dunno if I would
05/08/08 04:43:21 <Knot4Prophet> and prolly wracked with guilt
05/08/08 04:43:22 <Knot4Prophet> idk
05/08/08 04:43:36 <BEAR> Oh hey I've been meaning to ask you, knot, about some documentaries
05/08/08 04:43:39 <Knot4Prophet> leave a note? nope
05/08/08 04:43:39 <BEAR> you a buff on them right?
05/08/08 04:43:40 <Severus379> was that immoral?
05/08/08 04:43:43 <Knot4Prophet> i wouldnt commit suicide
05/08/08 04:43:46 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 04:43:55 <BEAR> I figured you'd say that
05/08/08 04:43:57 <Knot4Prophet> was what immoral, sev?
05/08/08 04:44:03 <Severus379> is suicide immoral?
05/08/08 04:44:05 <BEAR> Suicide?
05/08/08 04:44:07 <BEAR> Hell no
05/08/08 04:44:08 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:44:14 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:44:17 <Knot4Prophet> i dont think it is, no
05/08/08 04:44:23 <BEAR> I am certain it's not.
05/08/08 04:44:25 <Severus379> that survive thing can't be the basis of morality
05/08/08 04:44:26 <Knot4Prophet> its not hurting anyone but the biology
05/08/08 04:44:31 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> morality isn't about you
05/08/08 04:44:37 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 04:44:46 <Knot4Prophet> survival/death cycle is necessary for morality to exist
05/08/08 04:44:52 <Severus379> it's something that a certain group has in common
05/08/08 04:44:57 <BEAR> Anyone here ever heard of the documentary "Esoteric Agendas"?
05/08/08 04:45:07 <Severus379> morality is now independant from survive/death
05/08/08 04:45:09 <Knot4Prophet> and i cant link to the essay yet bear, cuz its not complete
05/08/08 04:45:11 <Severus379> not completely
05/08/08 04:45:14 <Severus379> but to a degree
05/08/08 04:45:18 <BEAR> ic
05/08/08 04:45:31 <Severus379> so there is more to morality than survivaö
05/08/08 04:45:31 <Knot4Prophet> those are just social mores, less related to survival
05/08/08 04:45:33 <Severus379> you said it
05/08/08 04:45:35 <BEAR> Want me to finish it? hehehe
05/08/08 04:45:40 <Knot4Prophet> ambiguous morality, i call it
05/08/08 04:45:47 <Knot4Prophet> when we're not sure if its 'good' or 'bad'
05/08/08 04:45:49 <Knot4Prophet> like drug use
05/08/08 04:45:57 <BEAR> Well
05/08/08 04:46:04 <Knot4Prophet> look across cultures and u'll c that its not consistent
05/08/08 04:46:04 <BEAR> how much does the drug hurt your biology
05/08/08 04:46:10 <Knot4Prophet> its ambiguous
05/08/08 04:46:17 <Knot4Prophet> whether drugs are 'good' or 'bad'
05/08/08 04:46:18 <BEAR> IE smack vs. tylenol
05/08/08 04:46:19 <Knot4Prophet> not murder.
05/08/08 04:46:27 Relentless 258 is listening to Music-Bashy - We Got Links
05/08/08 04:46:31 <Knot4Prophet> we instinctively know that killing is wrong
05/08/08 04:46:35 <BEAR> Some do
05/08/08 04:46:39 <Severus379> well, in WW2 murder was considered "moral"
05/08/08 04:46:42 <Knot4Prophet> most, bear
05/08/08 04:46:44 <BEAR> Small percentage don't
05/08/08 04:46:48 <Knot4Prophet> im talking 99.9%
05/08/08 04:46:48 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it's not instinct
05/08/08 04:46:49 <Severus379> so it's not that either is it
05/08/08 04:46:52 <Knot4Prophet> i dont care bout the rest
05/08/08 04:46:59 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot prove its learned
05/08/08 04:47:00 <BEAR> well a mall fraction of a percentage don't
05/08/08 04:47:01 <BEAR> lol
05/08/08 04:47:06 <Severus379> this is not a probabilistic debate
05/08/08 04:47:06 <BEAR> *small
05/08/08 04:47:13 <Severus379> it cannot be
05/08/08 04:47:20 <BEAR> brb
05/08/08 04:47:21 <Severus379> it's deterministic
05/08/08 04:47:23 <BEAR> ren
05/08/08 04:47:25 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:47:26 <Severus379> ?
05/08/08 04:47:27 <BEAR> I would like you to know
05/08/08 04:47:32 <BEAR> I am about to take a massive shit
05/08/08 04:47:35 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:47:36 <BEAR> it may rip my asshole
05/08/08 04:47:38 <BEAR> brb
05/08/08 04:47:39 <Severus379> right
05/08/08 04:47:42 <Severus379> good to know
05/08/08 04:47:51 <Knot4Prophet> good ol free speech aye
05/08/08 04:47:59 Severus379_26658 has left
05/08/08 04:48:04 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:48:15 <Knot4Prophet> aw come back, silly girl
05/08/08 04:48:17 Severus379_26658 (78.52.226.28) (DSL 554 files) has entered
05/08/08 04:48:17 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] Severus : 78.52.226.28 : 17160
05/08/08 04:48:19 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 04:48:20 <Knot4Prophet> wb
05/08/08 04:48:22 <Severus379> thx
05/08/08 04:48:28 <Knot4Prophet> server drop u?
05/08/08 04:48:48 <choco_forever456> it was the smell of bear's poop
05/08/08 04:48:52 <Knot4Prophet> heh
05/08/08 04:49:01 <Knot4Prophet> brb coffee/nuke
05/08/08 04:49:18 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 04:49:22 <Severus379> was deliberate
05/08/08 04:49:45 <Severus379> your coffees tak ages
05/08/08 04:49:47 <choco_forever456> to protest
05/08/08 04:49:52 <Severus379> no no
05/08/08 04:49:59 <Severus379> just didn't want that on the screen
05/08/08 04:50:02 <Severus379> lol+
05/08/08 04:50:05 <choco_forever456> ren , where did you get that quote
05/08/08 04:50:08 <choco_forever456> humans overcome biology's command to 'survive'
05/08/08 04:50:11 <Severus379> what quote??
05/08/08 04:50:19 Relentless 258 is listening to Soul II Soul - Back To Life
05/08/08 04:50:22 <Severus379> I didn't get that from anywhere
05/08/08 04:50:37 <Severus379> it was a logical conclusion from what knot said
05/08/08 04:50:45 <choco_forever456> you sais is a quote
05/08/08 04:50:49 <choco_forever456> 11:42:45 <Severus379> QUOTE: humans overcome biology's command to 'survive' = humans can define moral in a way that has overcome this instinct
05/08/08 04:50:54 <Severus379> oh
05/08/08 04:50:58 <Severus379> it's knots quote
05/08/08 04:51:00 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:51:05 <Severus379> I was just taking it further
05/08/08 04:51:26 <Severus379> and applied it to the moral thing
05/08/08 04:51:33 <choco_forever456> yes I saw
05/08/08 04:51:40 <Severus379> he said it cause I mentioned altruistic (moral) suicide
05/08/08 04:51:43 <Severus379> you see?
05/08/08 04:51:48 <Severus379> lke sacrificing
05/08/08 04:51:55 <Severus379> or mass suicide
05/08/08 04:51:55 <choco_forever456> I read that too
05/08/08 04:52:01 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - Crip Anthem
05/08/08 04:52:14 <choco_forever456> yes but that sacrificing has the finality of saving others
05/08/08 04:52:19 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 04:52:23 <choco_forever456> so , survival again
05/08/08 04:52:24 <Severus379> so it is considered moral
05/08/08 04:52:33 <choco_forever456> survival of others
05/08/08 04:52:35 <Knot4Prophet> list any moral code that does not have at its root "survival" and i'll show u how its ambiguous morality
05/08/08 04:52:40 <Severus379> it isn't just for survival
05/08/08 04:52:42 <Severus379> is it?
05/08/08 04:52:43 <Knot4Prophet> name some
05/08/08 04:52:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> people who choose not to reproduce
05/08/08 04:52:55 <Knot4Prophet> list some morals that have nothing to do with surival
05/08/08 04:52:57 <Severus379> it could be for achieving happiness in the after life
05/08/08 04:53:01 <Severus379> that's not survival
05/08/08 04:53:08 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - Gang bangin' shit
05/08/08 04:53:23 <Severus379> Okay knot
05/08/08 04:53:24 <Knot4Prophet> i dont distill that as instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:53:25 Severus379 thinks
05/08/08 04:53:27 <Knot4Prophet> as with murder
05/08/08 04:53:27 <Severus379> ouch
05/08/08 04:53:29 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 04:53:36 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:53:37 <choco_forever456> survival of the soul then ;p
05/08/08 04:53:42 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 04:53:43 <Severus379> umpf
05/08/08 04:53:45 <Knot4Prophet> now ur thinkin
05/08/08 04:53:47 <Severus379> far fetched shit
05/08/08 04:53:49 <Severus379> haha
05/08/08 04:53:52 <choco_forever456>
05/08/08 04:53:52 Severus379 thinks again
05/08/08 04:53:56 <Knot4Prophet> so is life, far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:05 <Knot4Prophet> that we exist at all, is far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:05 <Severus379> now THAT is far fetched
05/08/08 04:54:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> most people don't murder because of consequence not instinc
05/08/08 04:54:09 <Knot4Prophet> do we see it anywhere else?
05/08/08 04:54:22 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> t
05/08/08 04:54:25 <Knot4Prophet> u cant prove that
05/08/08 04:54:29 <Severus379> artistic morals
05/08/08 04:54:31 Relentless 258 is listening to Jayo Felony - The Loc Is On His Own
05/08/08 04:54:32 <Knot4Prophet> i know y i dont murder
05/08/08 04:54:33 <Severus379> like copyright
05/08/08 04:54:38 <Knot4Prophet> and it aint cuz what u just said
05/08/08 04:54:41 <Severus379> how is that about survival?
05/08/08 04:54:46 <Knot4Prophet> y should i assume everyone else is different, grr?
05/08/08 04:54:51 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont kill?
05/08/08 04:54:57 <Knot4Prophet> cuz the consequences, only?
05/08/08 04:54:59 <Knot4Prophet> really?
05/08/08 04:55:03 <Knot4Prophet> i find that rather shocking
05/08/08 04:55:12 <Knot4Prophet> copyright is not moral, to me, sev
05/08/08 04:55:18 <Knot4Prophet> its nonsense
05/08/08 04:55:18 <Severus379> not to you
05/08/08 04:55:23 <Severus379> but to artists
05/08/08 04:55:25 <Knot4Prophet> its not instinctual morality
05/08/08 04:55:31 <Severus379> morals aren't the same for each group
05/08/08 04:55:32 <Knot4Prophet> its cultural mores
05/08/08 04:55:43 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> why do people murder knot?
05/08/08 04:55:46 <Severus379> I was talking moral in general
05/08/08 04:55:51 <Severus379> you are already distinguishing
05/08/08 04:56:07 <Knot4Prophet> well that's y i distinguished 'instinctual morality' based purely on survival, from 'ambiguous morality' which may or may not have survival at its root
05/08/08 04:56:14 <Severus379> course there are instintual morals, but they don't necessarily determine the whole term morality
05/08/08 04:56:27 <Severus379> excuses excuses
05/08/08 04:56:30 <Severus379> I win
05/08/08 04:56:31 <Severus379>
05/08/08 04:56:34 <Knot4Prophet> but u and bust agreed that all morality is learned
05/08/08 04:56:44 <Severus379> not all, no
05/08/08 04:56:45 <Knot4Prophet> and u just confessed that there are instinctual ones
05/08/08 04:56:47 Knot4Prophet 000 wins
05/08/08 04:56:50 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> why do people murder knot?
05/08/08 04:56:52 <Severus379> but the biggest part, aye
05/08/08 04:56:59 <Knot4Prophet> for various reasons, grr
05/08/08 04:57:06 <Knot4Prophet> is there just one reason?
05/08/08 04:57:13 <Severus379> bad conscience is a consequence
05/08/08 04:57:27 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if not murdering is instinctive then yes
05/08/08 04:57:30 <Knot4Prophet> we dont know we will have a bad conscience to do something we havent done
05/08/08 04:57:40 <Severus379> do we notß
05/08/08 04:57:41 <Severus379> ?
05/08/08 04:57:43 <Knot4Prophet> if murdering was instinctive, we'd all do it
05/08/08 04:57:52 <Knot4Prophet> what we all tend to do, is what is instinctive
05/08/08 04:57:57 <Severus379> do we have no ability to theorise that feeling?
05/08/08 04:58:00 <Knot4Prophet> and holding murder as bad is what we all tend to do
05/08/08 04:58:02 <Knot4Prophet> by and large
05/08/08 04:58:14 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it was instinct not to murder then why do people do it?
05/08/08 04:58:23 <Severus379> good point
05/08/08 04:58:26 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl dont
05/08/08 04:58:31 <Knot4Prophet> the will overcomes biology
05/08/08 04:58:33 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> but some do
05/08/08 04:58:33 <Severus379> and why is it considered moral
05/08/08 04:58:37 <Severus379> most people WOULD
05/08/08 04:58:40 <Knot4Prophet> the will is not always in line with biology
05/08/08 04:58:40 <Severus379> 66%
05/08/08 04:58:47 <Knot4Prophet> would murder?
05/08/08 04:58:48 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
05/08/08 04:58:50 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:58:51 <Knot4Prophet> nope
05/08/08 04:58:53 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 04:58:55 <Knot4Prophet> i dont believe u
05/08/08 04:59:00 <Severus379> don't have to
05/08/08 04:59:03 <Knot4Prophet> prove it then
05/08/08 04:59:05 <Severus379> Milgram said it all
05/08/08 04:59:06 <Knot4Prophet> show me when they did
05/08/08 04:59:10 <Severus379> Milgram experiment
05/08/08 04:59:13 <Knot4Prophet> lol i dont care what some dude said
05/08/08 04:59:17 <Knot4Prophet> nor what ppl claimed
05/08/08 04:59:18 <Severus379> look it up if you don't believe me
05/08/08 04:59:22 <Knot4Prophet> i care what happens for real
05/08/08 04:59:25 <Severus379> been repeated many times
05/08/08 04:59:28 Relentless 258 is listening to Wretch 32 - My Life
05/08/08 04:59:34 <Severus379> they did think it's real
05/08/08 04:59:37 <Knot4Prophet> well show me a case where 66% of ppl DID murder
05/08/08 04:59:38 <Severus379> that's the point
05/08/08 04:59:51 <Knot4Prophet> and i'll believe u
05/08/08 04:59:53 <Severus379> I just HAVE
05/08/08 04:59:57 <Knot4Prophet> no, u didnt
05/08/08 05:00:07 <Severus379> they were convinced they killed someone by electric shock
05/08/08 05:00:12 <Severus379> that counts
05/08/08 05:00:16 <Severus379> because they thought so
05/08/08 05:00:24 <Severus379> another example
05/08/08 05:00:28 <Knot4Prophet> sounds pretty abstract and removed from the source
05/08/08 05:00:30 <Severus379> what the Germans did to the Jews
05/08/08 05:00:34 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the agument that not murdering is instinctive by the very fact that people murder, and it's not so small a percentage to just be a typical standard deviation point
05/08/08 05:00:36 <Knot4Prophet> they felt justified
05/08/08 05:00:40 <Severus379> exactly
05/08/08 05:00:43 <Severus379> they murdered
05/08/08 05:00:45 <Severus379> many did
05/08/08 05:00:51 <Knot4Prophet> it is a very small percentage
05/08/08 05:00:52 <BEAR> Taking a life is not only extremely personal it's traumatic. Most people haven't even had a physical confrontation, let alone taken someones life. The amount of adrenaline alone would be enough for most to reconsider their actions in a situation of a murder.
05/08/08 05:00:55 <Severus379> too many for it not to be representative
05/08/08 05:00:56 <Knot4Prophet> shall we check some stats?
05/08/08 05:01:02 <Knot4Prophet> and see what percent murder?
05/08/08 05:01:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no it's not knot
05/08/08 05:01:05 <Severus379> I will be last
05/08/08 05:01:09 <Severus379> just got in
05/08/08 05:01:11 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:01:17 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> how many people have died in wars?
05/08/08 05:01:26 <Knot4Prophet> wars are justifiable murder
05/08/08 05:01:34 <Knot4Prophet> like if someone comes at u to kill u
05/08/08 05:01:38 <Knot4Prophet> u are justified then
05/08/08 05:01:40 <Severus379> I said that 66% of the people WOULD murder if they feel it's necessary
05/08/08 05:01:41 <Knot4Prophet> based on survival
05/08/08 05:01:43 <Severus379> if pressured
05/08/08 05:01:47 <Knot4Prophet> bullshit
05/08/08 05:01:48 <Severus379> that is proven
05/08/08 05:01:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> a general tells you to kill someone you don't know overcomes instinct?
05/08/08 05:01:54 <Knot4Prophet> well if justified, sure
05/08/08 05:01:57 <Severus379> you just don't know the experiment
05/08/08 05:01:58 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout "murder"
05/08/08 05:02:01 <Severus379> so you put it down
05/08/08 05:02:07 <Severus379> so am I
05/08/08 05:02:13 <Severus379> you just don't want to believe it
05/08/08 05:02:19 <Severus379> and say bullshit instead
05/08/08 05:02:22 <Severus379> sad, really
05/08/08 05:02:29 <Severus379> you are not even looking it up
05/08/08 05:02:33 <Knot4Prophet> if u can justify in ur mind that who u are killing is a threat, then its 'good'
05/08/08 05:02:42 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 05:02:43 <BEAR> What if that general told you if you don't kill someone you don't know, said "someone" would kill you and yours
05/08/08 05:02:45 <Knot4Prophet> if its saving a billion, but costing one, its 'good'
05/08/08 05:02:46 <Severus379> it wasn't like that
05/08/08 05:02:55 <Knot4Prophet> right, bear
05/08/08 05:02:59 <Severus379> they were put under pressure, but not physically
05/08/08 05:03:01 <Knot4Prophet> that's justification
05/08/08 05:03:08 <Severus379> simply convinced by a figure of authority
05/08/08 05:03:26 Relentless 258 is listening to Track 6
05/08/08 05:03:28 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> yes bear like the invasion of iraq
05/08/08 05:03:28 <Knot4Prophet> well im talking about murder in general, not war
05/08/08 05:03:30 <Severus379> and under those circumstances two thirds of people would go as far as murder
05/08/08 05:03:38 <Severus379> omg
05/08/08 05:03:39 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> kill them before they kill us
05/08/08 05:03:39 <Knot4Prophet> if justified?
05/08/08 05:03:41 <Knot4Prophet> of course they would
05/08/08 05:03:43 <Knot4Prophet> so would i
05/08/08 05:03:43 <Severus379> just read it up
05/08/08 05:03:53 <Severus379> honestly, it's complicated
05/08/08 05:03:58 <Knot4Prophet> of course it is
05/08/08 05:04:42 <Knot4Prophet> if someone is bout to kill me and i kill them, its justifiable with regards to survival cuz i can assume that person may kill others too
05/08/08 05:04:51 <BEAR> I honestly feel lighter after I took that shit
05/08/08 05:04:53 <BEAR> and hungry
05/08/08 05:04:54 <Knot4Prophet> and i can also assume that by keepign other alive, keeps me alive
05/08/08 05:05:06 <Severus379> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
05/08/08 05:05:28 <Knot4Prophet> so justification is about a calculation of survival
05/08/08 05:05:38 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:05:43 <Severus379> no one thought they would die
05/08/08 05:05:45 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not even close
05/08/08 05:05:50 <Severus379> but we drifted off there
05/08/08 05:05:53 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:06:00 <Severus379> were talking morality
05/08/08 05:06:10 <Severus379> I would say in general all morals are learnt
05/08/08 05:06:15 <Severus379> apart from a very few
05/08/08 05:06:20 <Knot4Prophet> i'd agree
05/08/08 05:06:20 <Severus379> insignificant
05/08/08 05:06:24 <Knot4Prophet> wrong
05/08/08 05:06:31 <Severus379> because we even overcome the instinctual ones
05/08/08 05:06:34 <Knot4Prophet> survival is the most instinctual morality we have
05/08/08 05:06:40 <Severus379> so they are not part of morality any more
05/08/08 05:06:47 <Knot4Prophet> cuz we all, biologically, fear death
05/08/08 05:06:56 <Severus379> if there are societies who overcome the instictual ones.... one needs to relearn
05/08/08 05:06:58 <Knot4Prophet> we touch a hot pan, and hand moves quick
05/08/08 05:07:00 <Severus379> so basically
05/08/08 05:07:02 <Knot4Prophet> who taught u that?
05/08/08 05:07:03 <Severus379> all morals are learnt
05/08/08 05:07:27 <Severus379> because we also have to learn if the society we live in obeys the survival instinct
05/08/08 05:07:27 <Knot4Prophet> we avoid death, and because we have awareness, we calculate the value of surival of others
05/08/08 05:07:31 <Knot4Prophet> that's instinctual morality
05/08/08 05:07:41 <Knot4Prophet> most ppl obey it
05/08/08 05:07:45 <Knot4Prophet> unless acted upon
05/08/08 05:07:46 <Severus379> yeah, but apart from having the instincs...
05/08/08 05:07:58 <Severus379> we need to learn if that society obeys that rule
05/08/08 05:08:03 <Severus379> is that so difficult?
05/08/08 05:08:11 <Severus379> it is learned also
05/08/08 05:08:16 <Severus379> instinctual or not
05/08/08 05:08:21 <Knot4Prophet> definitely
05/08/08 05:08:25 <Severus379> we have instincts, yes
05/08/08 05:08:33 <Knot4Prophet> we have a legal system comprised of morality
05/08/08 05:08:40 <Severus379> but we have to learn if our environment accepts them
05/08/08 05:08:43 <Severus379> or not
05/08/08 05:08:45 <Severus379> or knot
05/08/08 05:08:48 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:09:03 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:09:08 <Knot4Prophet> (:
05/08/08 05:09:15 BEAR 999 watchs Esoteric Agenda on google video
05/08/08 05:09:34 <Severus379> the instincts alone...
05/08/08 05:09:39 <Severus379> aren't the basis for morality
05/08/08 05:09:42 <Severus379> they CANNOT be
05/08/08 05:09:44 <Knot4Prophet> are the basis of morality, yup
05/08/08 05:09:45 <Severus379> by logic
05/08/08 05:09:53 <Severus379> it's impossible
05/08/08 05:09:54 <Knot4Prophet> all morality is rooted in 'survival' to some degree
05/08/08 05:09:57 <Knot4Prophet> even copyright law
05/08/08 05:10:02 <Knot4Prophet> survival of the artist
05/08/08 05:10:03 <Severus379> following your chain of thoughts, it's impossible
05/08/08 05:10:05 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> many cultures have embraced human sacrifice, do you believe that would be possible if not murdering was instinctive?
05/08/08 05:10:24 <Severus379> are you doing your probabilistic shite again, knot?
05/08/08 05:10:32 <Severus379> instead of properly defining?
05/08/08 05:10:34 <Knot4Prophet> they felt that the few sacrificed benefitted the rest, on a survival basis
05/08/08 05:10:36 <Knot4Prophet> check it out
05/08/08 05:10:42 <Knot4Prophet> as to y they sacrificed
05/08/08 05:10:52 <Severus379> not necessarily
05/08/08 05:10:57 <Knot4Prophet> properly defining what?
05/08/08 05:11:04 <Severus379> MORALITY!
05/08/08 05:11:06 Relentless 258 is listening to Enya - If I Could Be Where You Are
05/08/08 05:11:07 <Knot4Prophet> not necessarily, but mainly
05/08/08 05:11:07 <Severus379> fucksake
05/08/08 05:11:10 Severus379 swears
05/08/08 05:11:12 <Knot4Prophet> i defined it, first
05/08/08 05:11:13 Relentless 258 is listening to Music-Eurythmics - There Must Be An Angel
05/08/08 05:11:14 <Knot4Prophet> from the start
05/08/08 05:11:22 <Knot4Prophet> my definition
05/08/08 05:11:26 <Severus379> you define it from a probabilistic point of view
05/08/08 05:11:26 <Knot4Prophet> which is a new one, obviously
05/08/08 05:11:30 <Severus379> by saying MOST
05/08/08 05:11:34 <Severus379> that sucks
05/08/08 05:11:41 <Severus379> it is not correct
05/08/08 05:11:55 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot say "all" for any human endeavour such as 'morality'
05/08/08 05:11:58 <Severus379> its like: the bigger the shoe size, the better the child will be at maths
05/08/08 05:12:02 <Knot4Prophet> it has no consistent meaning
05/08/08 05:12:06 <Knot4Prophet> i gave it one
05/08/08 05:12:11 <Severus379> forgetting that age is the relevant variable here
05/08/08 05:12:27 <Severus379> it has a consistent function
05/08/08 05:12:32 <Severus379> it's the foundation
05/08/08 05:12:33 <Knot4Prophet> i never factored age into it or out of it
05/08/08 05:12:35 <Severus379> of society
05/08/08 05:12:45 <Severus379> no, you misunderstood that
05/08/08 05:13:09 <Severus379> by argueing from a probabilistic point of view you miss out the opportunity to make a definition that fits all
05/08/08 05:13:15 <Knot4Prophet> when we talk of any human behaviour we can never say "all" - most is the best we can do
05/08/08 05:13:17 <Severus379> read again
05/08/08 05:13:36 <Knot4Prophet> i disagree that i've missed any opportunities
05/08/08 05:13:41 <Severus379> when we talk about a term we can try and find a definition that allows no exceptions
05/08/08 05:13:43 <Knot4Prophet> i wanted a narrow definition
05/08/08 05:13:47 <Severus379> take it in a abstract level
05/08/08 05:13:53 <Severus379> but you're not doing that
05/08/08 05:13:59 <Severus379> you stay in the raw bit
05/08/08 05:14:09 <Severus379> insisting on your theory
05/08/08 05:14:24 <Knot4Prophet> biology all wants to survive, i said - but obviously that's only "most"
05/08/08 05:14:29 <Knot4Prophet> some is damaged
05/08/08 05:14:30 <BEAR> http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... m2AQ&hl=en
05/08/08 05:14:32 <Severus379> I am not talking BIOLOGY!
05/08/08 05:14:42 <Knot4Prophet> that's part of my theory of morality
05/08/08 05:14:46 <Severus379> we can only explain the social out of the social
05/08/08 05:14:48 <Knot4Prophet> biology is necessary
05/08/08 05:14:55 <Knot4Prophet> entities
05/08/08 05:14:59 <Knot4Prophet> who live and die
05/08/08 05:15:01 <Severus379> ufff
05/08/08 05:15:12 <Knot4Prophet> we all live, we all die
05/08/08 05:15:13 <Severus379> it's too holistic, mate
05/08/08 05:15:20 <Knot4Prophet> hows that for absolutism?
05/08/08 05:15:20 <Severus379> too shallow
05/08/08 05:15:21 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:15:27 <Knot4Prophet> u just say that when u dont agree
05/08/08 05:15:32 <Knot4Prophet> like u did with anti
05/08/08 05:15:32 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:15:35 <Severus379> haha
05/08/08 05:15:37 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:15:51 <Severus379> no, combining them is too complicated just now
05/08/08 05:16:01 <Severus379> difference is, anti will just repeat himself
05/08/08 05:16:07 <Severus379> you'll explain better
05/08/08 05:16:09 <Severus379>
05/08/08 05:16:17 <Knot4Prophet> i dont need to include copyright law into my theory of morality cuz i dont feel that copyright law is morally justifiable
05/08/08 05:16:31 <Knot4Prophet> i dont need an all encompassing theory that explains all human behaviour
05/08/08 05:16:31 <Severus379> well, then it will stay just that
05/08/08 05:16:34 <Severus379> YOUR theory
05/08/08 05:16:39 <Severus379> applicable to no one
05/08/08 05:16:40 <Knot4Prophet> im just explaing base instincts
05/08/08 05:16:44 <Severus379> but knot
05/08/08 05:16:51 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 05:16:54 <Knot4Prophet> using real life examples
05/08/08 05:16:56 <Severus379> what is that worth?
05/08/08 05:16:59 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> morality is not instinctive
05/08/08 05:17:00 <Knot4Prophet> of real ppl and my own experience
05/08/08 05:17:08 <Knot4Prophet> it is for me, grrr
05/08/08 05:17:15 <Knot4Prophet> i didnt need to learn that i dont want to die
05/08/08 05:17:16 <Severus379> yeah but just for you
05/08/08 05:17:26 <Knot4Prophet> i know many ppl who agree with what i just said
05/08/08 05:17:26 <Severus379> why make theories that don't apply to anyone
05/08/08 05:17:33 <Severus379> bit selfish for a great mind like you
05/08/08 05:17:35 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> there is far too much immorality for it to be
05/08/08 05:17:37 <Knot4Prophet> they apply to everyone, whether they agree or not
05/08/08 05:17:40 Relentless 258 is listening to no artist - AudioTrack 01
05/08/08 05:17:45 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:17:49 <Knot4Prophet> what consists of immorality?
05/08/08 05:17:49 <Severus379> how can they
05/08/08 05:17:50 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:17:50 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] mickey : 207.192.209.233 : 15368
05/08/08 05:17:54 <Knot4Prophet> justifiable murder doesnt
05/08/08 05:17:59 <Knot4Prophet> list what does, grrr
05/08/08 05:18:02 <Severus379> immorality means disacknowledgement
05/08/08 05:18:03 <Knot4Prophet> list all this 'immorality'
05/08/08 05:18:05 <Severus379> of an action
05/08/08 05:18:14 <Severus379> and consequences could be punishment
05/08/08 05:18:27 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> for a start different cultures define morality differently
05/08/08 05:18:29 <Knot4Prophet> if i rape some chick, that's not disacknowledging her
05/08/08 05:18:41 <Knot4Prophet> yeah the ambiguous morality is defined differently
05/08/08 05:18:44 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it was instinct one size woud fit all
05/08/08 05:18:44 <Knot4Prophet> cuz its ambiguous
05/08/08 05:18:45 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:47 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:49 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:50 <Severus379> immoral is whatever the certain group decides is punishable/ disacknowledgeable
05/08/08 05:18:51 <Knot4Prophet> murder is a code across all cultures
05/08/08 05:19:04 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no it's not
05/08/08 05:19:05 <Knot4Prophet> we all "decided" that murder was wrong?
05/08/08 05:19:06 <Severus379> here we go, there is a term that excludes exceptions
05/08/08 05:19:10 <Knot4Prophet> bull shit.
05/08/08 05:19:18 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> the aztec murdered for fun
05/08/08 05:19:23 <Severus379> no
05/08/08 05:19:27 <Knot4Prophet> not each other and not for fun
05/08/08 05:19:30 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> many cultures have
05/08/08 05:19:35 <Knot4Prophet> they felt justified
05/08/08 05:19:37 <Severus379> we "decide that it's wrong cause we know it's wrong
05/08/08 05:19:40 <Knot4Prophet> they didnt murder randomly
05/08/08 05:19:41 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> a human is a human knot
05/08/08 05:19:43 <Severus379> you only attacked the weakest word
05/08/08 05:19:51 <Severus379> ignoring my great sentence
05/08/08 05:19:53 <Knot4Prophet> humans do not murder, by and large
05/08/08 05:19:59 <Knot4Prophet> lol sev
05/08/08 05:20:05 <Knot4Prophet> y not attack weakest link?
05/08/08 05:20:07 Severus379 is in a huff
05/08/08 05:20:09 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> if it's hard wired we wouldn't do it
05/08/08 05:20:20 <Knot4Prophet> wires dont always work right
05/08/08 05:20:27 <Knot4Prophet> we have deformities too
05/08/08 05:20:30 <Severus379> we don't do it for several reasons
05/08/08 05:20:30 <mickey572> well... tell me of 911 then.. was that murder
05/08/08 05:20:36 <Severus379> but that doesn't fucking matter
05/08/08 05:20:36 <Knot4Prophet> surely
05/08/08 05:20:38 <Knot4Prophet> @mick
05/08/08 05:20:44 <Severus379> it doesn't matter why we don't do it
05/08/08 05:20:49 <Knot4Prophet> it does to me
05/08/08 05:20:51 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> so all murderers are just people with broken insticts?
05/08/08 05:20:57 <Knot4Prophet> perhaps
05/08/08 05:21:04 <Severus379> yeah, but it's not important what matters to you
05/08/08 05:21:04 <Knot4Prophet> perhaps their justifications are fucked up
05/08/08 05:21:07 <Severus379> on a large scale
05/08/08 05:21:15 <Knot4Prophet> it is important
05/08/08 05:21:18 <Knot4Prophet> cuz i declare it
05/08/08 05:21:32 Severus379 sighs and throws her arms up in resignation
05/08/08 05:21:35 <Knot4Prophet> if im bothering to ponder it, it must be important
05/08/08 05:21:39 <mickey572> grrrrrrrrrrrrrr when you figure out the pilot ... of 911 you see
05/08/08 05:21:51 <mickey572> ok
05/08/08 05:22:12 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> i see what mick?
05/08/08 05:22:29 <Knot4Prophet> show me a culture where ppl didnt work together to aid each other's surival
05/08/08 05:22:33 <BEAR> Knot
05/08/08 05:22:42 <BEAR> I'm pretty sure this doc. is bullshit... but
05/08/08 05:22:46 <Knot4Prophet> show me the success of "murder" when we consider the balloonign population of the earth
05/08/08 05:22:48 <BEAR> Not completely sure.
05/08/08 05:22:50 <Severus379> what does that have to do with defining moral???
05/08/08 05:22:52 <mickey572> sigh...........when you figure out the pilot ... of 911
05/08/08 05:23:01 <Knot4Prophet> shall we check some stats on human population thru the past 5000 years?
05/08/08 05:23:02 <Severus379> you can't see morality by what people do
05/08/08 05:23:04 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:23:04 <mickey572> you will see....... ok
05/08/08 05:23:08 <Knot4Prophet> lets see how "successful" murder is
05/08/08 05:23:10 <mickey572> good grief
05/08/08 05:23:11 Relentless 258 is listening to Artist-Session1 Track1
05/08/08 05:23:11 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:23:15 <Severus379> you can only see it by what people unish
05/08/08 05:23:17 <Severus379> punish
05/08/08 05:23:25 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> people by and large don't murder because of consequence
05/08/08 05:23:36 <Severus379> that doesn't matter either
05/08/08 05:23:40 <Severus379> what matters is...
05/08/08 05:23:41 <Knot4Prophet> what's morally instinctual is what is found across all cultures, is what im saying, sev
05/08/08 05:23:54 <BEAR> aaaand you're engrossed
05/08/08 05:23:55 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont murder, grr?
05/08/08 05:24:00 BEAR 999 goes back to his doc.
05/08/08 05:24:01 <mickey572> dang knot..... you are so smart
05/08/08 05:24:04 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:24:06 <Knot4Prophet> u didnt answer last time i asked
05/08/08 05:24:09 <mickey572> sorry... i got to go
05/08/08 05:24:11 mickey572_27765 has left
05/08/08 05:24:11 <Knot4Prophet> i am smart, aye
05/08/08 05:24:19 <Relentless> cunt
05/08/08 05:24:20 <Severus379> there is only one universal moral, man
05/08/08 05:24:20 <Relentless> lol
05/08/08 05:24:22 <Knot4Prophet> is that y u dont murder ppl, grr?
05/08/08 05:24:23 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> no knot i don't murder because of empathy
05/08/08 05:24:24 <Severus379> how many times???
05/08/08 05:24:32 <Knot4Prophet> but no one else is afforded that?
05/08/08 05:24:38 <Knot4Prophet> yet im sitting her claiming same thing
05/08/08 05:24:46 <Knot4Prophet> and stats prove that most ppl are like me
05/08/08 05:24:49 <Knot4Prophet> history proves it
05/08/08 05:24:55 <Severus379> hmmm
05/08/08 05:24:58 <Knot4Prophet> yet u think most ppl murder not cuz y u do?
05/08/08 05:24:59 <Severus379> there was this guy
05/08/08 05:25:00 <Knot4Prophet> seriously?
05/08/08 05:25:03 <Knot4Prophet> come now
05/08/08 05:25:10 <Severus379> who lived with hundreds of clans
05/08/08 05:25:14 <Severus379> and sent people out
05/08/08 05:25:16 <BEAR> Jesus christ
05/08/08 05:25:19 <Severus379> levi strauss
05/08/08 05:25:25 <BEAR> this video is damn near lunacy
05/08/08 05:25:36 <Severus379> and he found that the only universal moral is incest taboo
05/08/08 05:25:39 <Severus379> NOT murder
05/08/08 05:25:51 <Knot4Prophet> well i disagree, but he may define morality different
05/08/08 05:25:58 <Severus379> you can't disagree
05/08/08 05:26:00 <Knot4Prophet> i equate good with 'survival'
05/08/08 05:26:05 <Severus379> urgh
05/08/08 05:26:05 <Knot4Prophet> and bad with 'death'
05/08/08 05:26:11 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> not in the australian aboriginal population ren
05/08/08 05:26:16 <Severus379> there is a reason why they are two different words
05/08/08 05:26:18 <Severus379> no?
05/08/08 05:26:21 <Knot4Prophet> they do incest?
05/08/08 05:26:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> sure do
05/08/08 05:26:31 <Knot4Prophet> cool
05/08/08 05:26:33 <Severus379> grrrr, they do not
05/08/08 05:26:34 <Knot4Prophet> so did Lot
05/08/08 05:26:40 <Severus379> yes ad it was wrong
05/08/08 05:26:41 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> yes they do ren
05/08/08 05:26:43 <Knot4Prophet> and god saved his ass just to do it
05/08/08 05:26:46 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:26:49 <Severus379> people doing it shows that it's wrong
05/08/08 05:26:50 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> still do infact
05/08/08 05:26:56 <Severus379> cause it's punished
05/08/08 05:27:08 <Knot4Prophet> it causes deformities, which is anti-survival
05/08/08 05:27:09 <Severus379> incest is the only thing that is never accepted
05/08/08 05:27:16 <Hucky713> bollox
05/08/08 05:27:18 <Knot4Prophet> but not always deformities, so ambiguous
05/08/08 05:27:28 <Severus379> doesn't mean that people don't do it
05/08/08 05:27:29 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it's punished now if it's discovered
05/08/08 05:27:36 <Severus379> it's just never accepted
05/08/08 05:27:38 <Severus379> as a whole
05/08/08 05:27:47 <Severus379> australians do not legalise incest
05/08/08 05:27:47 <Knot4Prophet> lots of the aristocracy in france and england and elsewhere practised it, too
05/08/08 05:27:52 <Severus379> illegal = immoral
05/08/08 05:27:55 <Severus379> in that case
05/08/08 05:28:03 <Severus379> that proves my point
05/08/08 05:28:08 <Hucky713> murders not immoral?
05/08/08 05:28:16 Relentless 258 is listening to Bloods & Crips - Blood in Blood out
05/08/08 05:28:17 <choco_forever456> till recently in UK was legal the marriage between primary cousines
05/08/08 05:28:17 <Knot4Prophet> proves that incest isnt instinctual morality, aye
05/08/08 05:28:20 <Severus379> not everywhere
05/08/08 05:28:21 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> before the european conquest it was common practice
05/08/08 05:28:25 <Severus379> in third reich it wasn't
05/08/08 05:28:43 <choco_forever456> in ancient times bro/sis sex wasnt considered imoral
05/08/08 05:28:43 <Severus379> and you can't "DEFINE" based on "PROBABILITIES"
05/08/08 05:28:46 <Hucky713> ah well, they were correct huh.
05/08/08 05:28:46 BEAR 999 looks back in
05/08/08 05:28:50 <Severus379> that's not what a definition is
05/08/08 05:28:54 <Knot4Prophet> well this incest taboo is not consistent
05/08/08 05:28:54 <Severus379> that's a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:28:58 <Knot4Prophet> not like murder is
05/08/08 05:29:05 <Knot4Prophet> cuz murder = non survival
05/08/08 05:29:06 <Severus379> incest taboo is consistent
05/08/08 05:29:07 <Knot4Prophet> incest doesnt
05/08/08 05:29:08 <Knot4Prophet> nope
05/08/08 05:29:12 <Knot4Prophet> grr just showed how it aint
05/08/08 05:29:14 <Knot4Prophet> and so did choco
05/08/08 05:29:15 <Severus379> it is always punished
05/08/08 05:29:16 <Knot4Prophet> and so did i
05/08/08 05:29:17 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> it is mentioned in the OT
05/08/08 05:29:18 <Severus379> never accepted
05/08/08 05:29:23 <Knot4Prophet> it was in OT too, aye
05/08/08 05:29:25 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:29:28 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> lot and his daughters
05/08/08 05:29:31 <Knot4Prophet> aye
05/08/08 05:29:31 <BEAR> Instinctual
05/08/08 05:29:33 <Severus379> but God killed thousands
05/08/08 05:29:33 <Knot4Prophet> i wrote an essay on it
05/08/08 05:29:47 <choco_forever456> not always , just recently it started to be accepted as imoral among most societies
05/08/08 05:29:50 <Knot4Prophet> him fucking his kids, after being spared from sodom and gomorrahs destruction
05/08/08 05:29:51 <Severus379> the OT isn't exactly a foundation for morality
05/08/08 05:29:59 <choco_forever456> after they realised it jeopartises survival
05/08/08 05:30:00 <Knot4Prophet> history is, tho
05/08/08 05:30:08 <Severus379> just because someone wrote that fairy tale
05/08/08 05:30:08 <choco_forever456> jeo...
05/08/08 05:30:08 <BEAR> They got dad drunk and went for a ride
05/08/08 05:30:11 <choco_forever456> whatever
05/08/08 05:30:12 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:30:18 <Severus379> incest happens
05/08/08 05:30:22 <BEAR> Right
05/08/08 05:30:23 <Knot4Prophet> in all fiction there is non fiction, and vice versa
05/08/08 05:30:26 <Severus379> but it's aöwaysdespised
05/08/08 05:30:30 <Knot4Prophet> u cannot totally separate them
05/08/08 05:30:30 <Severus379> people are outraged
05/08/08 05:30:36 <Severus379> it is made illegal
05/08/08 05:30:37 <Knot4Prophet> not always, some dig it
05/08/08 05:30:38 <Severus379> or punished
05/08/08 05:30:42 <Severus379> but never accapted
05/08/08 05:30:54 <Knot4Prophet> grr said in aus aborigines it was
05/08/08 05:30:57 <Severus379> at list first degree incest
05/08/08 05:30:59 <Severus379> only that
05/08/08 05:31:02 <Severus379> not cousins, etc
05/08/08 05:31:10 <Knot4Prophet> well now ur being murky
05/08/08 05:31:11 <choco_forever456> is marriage amongst cousines incest to you , ren?
05/08/08 05:31:11 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:31:16 <Severus379> read up on Levi-Strauss incest taboo
05/08/08 05:31:19 <Severus379> he says it well
05/08/08 05:31:30 <BEAR> I'm sorry but I have a first cousin who is smokin' hot. Delusional as fuck.. whorey and stuck up. Arrogant lil christian chit. But still pretty fucking hot.
05/08/08 05:31:35 <Knot4Prophet> i dont buy into other ppl's theories, much
05/08/08 05:31:38 <Severus379> marriage amongst cousins isn't part of the incest taboo, no
05/08/08 05:31:43 <Knot4Prophet> unless i can get there on my own, too
05/08/08 05:31:46 <BEAR> Course you don't, knot
05/08/08 05:31:50 <Severus379> that's silly
05/08/08 05:31:53 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> ummm father/daughter brother/brother it was just sex to them
05/08/08 05:31:57 <BEAR> you tank track over it and make yer own
05/08/08 05:32:04 <Severus379> lol
05/08/08 05:32:07 <Knot4Prophet> i dont consider anyone more capable than me
05/08/08 05:32:11 <Knot4Prophet> y should i?
05/08/08 05:32:12 <BEAR> < does
05/08/08 05:32:18 Severus379 does, too
05/08/08 05:32:23 <choco_forever456> romans were shagging their own sisters like chimps
05/08/08 05:32:24 BEAR 999 grins
05/08/08 05:32:30 <BEAR> Right, choco
05/08/08 05:32:31 <choco_forever456> brithers ocasinally
05/08/08 05:32:35 <choco_forever456> brothers*
05/08/08 05:32:36 <BEAR> and the greeks before them
05/08/08 05:32:39 <Severus379> do you know that cause it was punished?
05/08/08 05:32:39 <Knot4Prophet> i dont defer to 'received wisdom'
05/08/08 05:32:40 <BEAR> sons
05/08/08 05:32:41 <choco_forever456> too much
05/08/08 05:32:48 <Severus379> cause people DO incest
05/08/08 05:32:53 <BEAR> What other kind of wisdom is there, knot?
05/08/08 05:32:55 <Severus379> that's how we find out
05/08/08 05:32:59 <Severus379> if it's immoral
05/08/08 05:33:07 <Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrnix666> just as people DO murder
05/08/08 05:33:07 <Knot4Prophet> murder is more consistent as a moral factor than is incest
05/08/08 05:33:10 <Severus379> by the breech of the morale
05/08/08 05:33:17 <Severus379> it is?
05/08/08 05:33:18 <BEAR> Much more.
05/08/08 05:33:19 <Severus379> prove it
05/08/08 05:33:24 <BEAR> axiom
05/08/08 05:33:31 <Severus379> nope
05/08/08 05:33:34 <BEAR> yer
05/08/08 05:33:35 <Knot4Prophet> and the degree to which incest is consistent, is the degree to which it is instinctually moral
05/08/08 05:33:53 <Knot4Prophet> same goes for any other moral behaviour
05/08/08 05:33:58 <Severus379> murder isn't necessarily immoral
05/08/08 05:34:00 <Severus379> therefore
05/08/08 05:34:07 <Knot4Prophet> the less consistent, the less instinctual, the more 'learned'
05/08/08 05:34:07 <Hucky713> bollox
05/08/08 05:34:10 <Severus379> it cannot be part of the definition
05/08/08 05:34:18 <BEAR> hm
05/08/08 05:34:19 <Severus379> cannot be
05/08/08 05:34:20 Sprinkles657_13180 (90.202.218.194) (Cable 0 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:34:20 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] Sprinkles : 90.202.218.194 : 56587
05/08/08 05:34:23 <Severus379> logic
05/08/08 05:34:31 <choco_forever456> if the results of such an actions affects the welfare of other or himself , thats how we find if something is moral or not.
05/08/08 05:34:32 <Knot4Prophet> if murder isnt immoral, nothig is
05/08/08 05:34:36 <Knot4Prophet> and we dont need to bother conversiong
05/08/08 05:34:45 <Severus379> murder isn't immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:34:49 <Severus379> I said that
05/08/08 05:34:54 <Severus379> so it's not partof it
05/08/08 05:34:57 Relentless 258 is listening to Gin Blossoms - Hey Jealousy
05/08/08 05:35:01 <Knot4Prophet> random, unjustified murder is immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:35:04 <Knot4Prophet> or they wouldnt exist!
05/08/08 05:35:05 <Severus379> only MOSTLY
05/08/08 05:35:12 <Severus379> but it doesn't make the definition
05/08/08 05:35:16 <Knot4Prophet> same with any human behaviour
05/08/08 05:35:20 <Severus379> I know
05/08/08 05:35:29 <Severus379> but it doesn't make the definition
05/08/08 05:35:33 <Knot4Prophet> it makes mine
05/08/08 05:35:36 <Severus379> do you knot understand?
05/08/08 05:35:50 <Knot4Prophet> random, unjustified murder is immoral in all societies
05/08/08 05:35:57 <BEAR> Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (seco
05/08/08 05:36:01 <Severus379> I was talking general
05/08/08 05:36:15 <Hucky713> talking bollox more like.
05/08/08 05:36:15 <Severus379> not YOUR little homemade probabilistic defo
05/08/08 05:36:16 <Knot4Prophet> well ur using a definition of murder that i dont adhere to
05/08/08 05:36:29 <Knot4Prophet> i dont call any old killing murder
05/08/08 05:36:31 <Knot4Prophet> neither does the law
05/08/08 05:36:37 <Knot4Prophet> i can kill someone who attacks me
05/08/08 05:36:38 <BEAR> Right.
05/08/08 05:36:40 <Knot4Prophet> justifiably
05/08/08 05:36:44 <Severus379> I am saying that when you define moral it doesn't include a certain thing
05/08/08 05:36:47 <Knot4Prophet> its righteoius
05/08/08 05:36:48 <Severus379> it is a construct
05/08/08 05:36:57 <Knot4Prophet> all things are constructs, so what?
05/08/08 05:36:59 <Severus379> different everywhere
05/08/08 05:37:11 <Knot4Prophet> if it explains something, it has value
05/08/08 05:37:11 <Severus379> apart from the incest thing, but that is completely unimportant
05/08/08 05:37:15 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:37:17 <Severus379> everything is a construct
05/08/08 05:37:18 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:37:22 <Severus379> not instinct
05/08/08 05:37:26 <Severus379> CONSTRUCZ
05/08/08 05:37:28 <Severus379> hehehe
05/08/08 05:37:31 <Severus379> construct
05/08/08 05:37:34 <Severus379> we are not animals
05/08/08 05:37:35 <BEAR> and I think you're well "constructed"
05/08/08 05:37:38 BEAR 999 growls
05/08/08 05:37:41 <Knot4Prophet> just cuz we fashion a construct doesnt mean the things we construct it around are nonexistent
05/08/08 05:37:44 <Knot4Prophet> nor random
05/08/08 05:37:48 <Hucky713> we are Animals, you numpty
05/08/08 05:38:02 <Severus379> yeah, but the term moral raises above that fact
05/08/08 05:38:07 <Knot4Prophet> how so?
05/08/08 05:38:10 <Knot4Prophet> "raises"?
05/08/08 05:38:13 <Severus379> I am talking about the things that distinguish us
05/08/08 05:38:17 <Severus379> from animals
05/08/08 05:38:23 <Severus379> social construction
05/08/08 05:38:28 <Hucky713> like murder not being immoral?
05/08/08 05:38:29 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout instinctual morality
05/08/08 05:38:31 <Severus379> sitting in a chat for example?
05/08/08 05:38:43 <Knot4Prophet> we all know murder is wrong, and we didnt need to be taught it
05/08/08 05:38:51 <Severus379> course we are animals to some degree, but that goes without saying
05/08/08 05:38:52 <BEAR> an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.
05/08/08 05:38:56 <BEAR> Instinct
05/08/08 05:38:58 <Knot4Prophet> cuz we are "aware" or as grr said, he can empathize, which requires awareness
05/08/08 05:39:02 <Severus379> I think murder is immoral
05/08/08 05:39:07 <Knot4Prophet> it is!
05/08/08 05:39:07 <Severus379> but not everyone does
05/08/08 05:39:08 <Hucky713> lol
05/08/08 05:39:08 <Knot4Prophet> lol
05/08/08 05:39:13 <Knot4Prophet> most everyone does
05/08/08 05:39:21 <Severus379> so it cannot define the term
05/08/08 05:39:21 <Knot4Prophet> only a negligible amount dont
05/08/08 05:39:24 Relentless 258 is listening to Artist-Session1 Track1
05/08/08 05:39:30 <Severus379> "most" can't make adefinition
05/08/08 05:39:30 <choco_forever456> which are usually mental
05/08/08 05:39:34 <Knot4Prophet> most can so
05/08/08 05:39:38 <Severus379> what?
05/08/08 05:39:49 <Severus379> it can make a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:39:53 <Severus379> not a definition
05/08/08 05:39:55 <Knot4Prophet> if it contains 99.9% thats enough for me to define a class
05/08/08 05:40:01 <Severus379> no it isn't
05/08/08 05:40:05 <Knot4Prophet> it is for me
05/08/08 05:40:08 <Severus379> it's a hypothesis
05/08/08 05:40:19 <Knot4Prophet> all things are hypotheses
05/08/08 05:40:26 <Severus379> definitions are all including
05/08/08 05:40:32 <Knot4Prophet> some are, some arent
05/08/08 05:40:33 <Severus379> and excluding exceptions
05/08/08 05:40:42 <Knot4Prophet> my morality is divided into 2
05/08/08 05:40:42 <Severus379> that's what define means
05/08/08 05:40:44 <Knot4Prophet> which covers all
05/08/08 05:40:54 <Severus379> umpf
05/08/08 05:40:58 <Knot4Prophet> and is backed by biology
05/08/08 05:41:00 <Knot4Prophet> and history
05/08/08 05:41:04 <Severus379> I am not talking about FOR YOU
05/08/08 05:41:10 <Knot4Prophet> im talking bout for all of us
05/08/08 05:41:14 <Knot4Prophet> its applicable to u too
05/08/08 05:41:21 <Severus379> it isn't
05/08/08 05:41:22 <Knot4Prophet> i know u dont murder cuz of what grr said too
05/08/08 05:41:31 <Knot4Prophet> cuz u can empathize
05/08/08 05:41:33 <Knot4Prophet> cuz u value life
05/08/08 05:41:38 <Severus379> yes
05/08/08 05:41:39 <Knot4Prophet> cuz ur biology says "survive"
05/08/08 05:41:42 <Severus379> but besides that
05/08/08 05:41:50 <choco_forever456> I am telling you its immoral whatever action is carried and it affects the welfare and life of itself or others .
05/08/08 05:42:20 <Severus379> what immoral is you can see by what is being punished/disacknowledged
05/08/08 05:42:32 <Severus379> that doesn't include things yet
05/08/08 05:42:37 <Knot4Prophet> and im saying the degree to which that action is ambiguously against surivival is the degree to which is ambiguous morality
05/08/08 05:42:38 <Severus379> we fill that definition
05/08/08 05:42:48 <Severus379> oh knot
05/08/08 05:42:55 <Severus379> we are all destroying out planet
05/08/08 05:42:58 <Severus379> you are smoking
05/08/08 05:43:00 <Knot4Prophet> says who?
05/08/08 05:43:10 <Knot4Prophet> how do i know smoking destroys the planet?
05/08/08 05:43:11 <Severus379> too complicated
05/08/08 05:43:15 <Severus379> different example
05/08/08 05:43:16 <Knot4Prophet> i dont believe that at all
05/08/08 05:43:20 <Knot4Prophet> its 'ambiguous'
05/08/08 05:43:21 mickey572_27765 (207.192.209.233) (Cable 813 files) has entered
05/08/08 05:43:21 ApostaScythe 000 [Admin] mickey : 207.192.209.233 : 24072
05/08/08 05:43:23 <Knot4Prophet> whether it does or not
05/08/08 05:43:26 <Severus379> many people smoke = destry themselves to a degree
05/08/08 05:43:30 <Severus379> this is not immoral
05/08/08 05:43:33 <Knot4Prophet> suicide isnt immoral, nope
05/08/08 05:43:35 <Knot4Prophet> agreed.
05/08/08 05:43:38 <Severus379> even though it goes against survival
05/08/08 05:43:43 <Knot4Prophet> not everyone else's
05/08/08 05:43:47 <Knot4Prophet> morality takes 2 remember?
05/08/08 05:43:53 <Knot4Prophet> from my first principles
05/08/08 05:43:53 <Severus379> ...sigh...
05/08/08 05:43:55 <Knot4Prophet>
05/08/08 05:43:55 <choco_forever456> yes
05/08/08 05:43:59 <choco_forever456>
05/08/08 05:44:07 BEAR 999 winks at Ren
05/08/08 05:44:10 <BEAR> It takes two..
05/08/08 05:44:15 <Knot4Prophet> i've considered every deleterious human behaviour
05/08/08 05:44:21 <Knot4Prophet> b4 i ventured on with this theory
05/08/08 05:44:26 <Knot4Prophet> think up some more
05/08/08 05:44:34 <Knot4Prophet> and i'll show u how they are ambiguous
05/08/08 05:44:34 BEAR 999 snorts a rail
05/08/08 05:44:39 <Knot4Prophet> or not immoral at all
05/08/08 05:44:39 Relentless 258 is listening to Invincible No Fear - AudioTrack 02
05/08/08 05:44:45 <choco_forever456> you must be bloody good if you managed to make that girl sigh
05/08/08 05:44:46 BEAR 999 tortures a small animal
05/08/08 05:44:53 <Knot4Prophet> lol she's tough aye
05/08/08 05:44:55 <choco_forever456> she is endlesssssssssssssssssssssssss
05/08/08 05:44:56 <mickey572> wow.......knot.....such a genious
05/08/08 05:44:59 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:45:00 <Knot4Prophet> relax mick
05/08/08 05:45:04 <BEAR> genius?
05/08/08 05:45:14 <mickey572> how......oh how do you do it
05/08/08 05:45:18 <Knot4Prophet> idk
05/08/08 05:45:19 <mickey572> lol
05/08/08 05:45:20 <Severus379> Durkheim's views on crime were a departure from conventional notions. He believed that crime is "bound up with the fundamental conditions of all social life" and serves a social function. He stated that crime implies, "not only that the way remains open to necessary change, but that in certain cases it directly proposes these changes... crime [can thus be] a useful prelude to reforms."
05/08/08 05:45:21 <BEAR> genieous?
(continued below)