Knot4Prophet.com Forum :: View topic - No Belief is a Belief?

On the personal questions-and no, I don't find them disrespectful.

When it comes to faith and choice, what I intended to say, and yes, from an individual perspective, time and experience has shown me that people cling on to mindsets and ideas that run contrary to them are disregarded as irresponsible or even insane. (My own life has not been an exception to this.) Faith, to me, is believing in what can't be seen, touched, explained away or folded up and placed in my pocket. Abstract? Absolutely. I say that choice, i.e. our free will, is our only true freedom because all other freedoms, as in the accumulation of information, the ability to explore our world or others, or the ability to plant a garden are all physical attributes of being human in this world, and any of them can be curtailed or even taken away. Even if someone is placed in total isolation and every facet of their existence regulated by another, that individual still retains the free will to decide how to live within that environment. We bend by choosing it. We obey by choosing to. We defy by choosing to. We choose to accept our reality and live and grow within it to the best of our ability, or we choose not to and accept whatever consequence or reward awaits us. Either way, a choice is there. Granted, this is an extreme example, but the possibility exists. Faith in what we can't see because we aren't there yet is what pulls us forward.

Why do I believe in God? Not because I'm delusional or someone guilted me into doing so, or because a Bible was forced down my throat, but partly because the thought has been something that has been with me literally since I can remember and mostly due to the fact that I had the temerity to place my pride in what I already knew aside and accept the POSSIBILITY of God being a reality rather than just an idea. The proof? Can you weigh or measure Spirit? Can you fully explain it? Oops. There's that faith thing again. Believing in what we can't see does more to inform us and expand our understanding than any pile of books could ever do. But can you keep the door open to the possibility, even if it fights with every rational fact that you've ever learned?

Yes, I know the definition of atheism. My statement was not incorrect. I know there are literally millions of people who describe themselves as atheist. Thing is, whenever a person, through their free will, chooses this path, the question of God crossed their minds first. The idea of no god comes from the concept of God. Ergo, my statement. The fact that they chose not to believe in gods or God doesn't change the fact that He or they existed within their minds in the first place, before the choice was made. If you choose to believe that all humans are nothing more than a mass of meat and bone, then all subsequent thoughts and actions are filtered through this belief, and all that you do serves the purpose of proving this true to yourself, hence we all serve something larger than ourselves. Like Bob Dylan sang, "You gotta serve somebody", even if one chooses to remain ignorant of what that is. (Not giving a shit about it.)

Author:	Scar~ [ Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:	No Belief is a Belief?
I want to ask a specific question. I want to explain the reference point before asking. It's commonly said that the position of not having a belief in god(s), "atheism", is just as tenuous a position as a belief in god(s),"theism". The notion being atheism requires a faith of some sort to not have a belief in whatever deity is being discussed. Essentially saying an atheist has to maintain a counter belief in Vishnu, Brahma,Yahweh, Allah( the un-same 'god"), Jaguar gods, Tree gods etc...at all times. By that reasoning, a theist who believes in one god, then by extension has to maintain a belief in the non belief of all other gods...I don't think thats the case.I think if it's considered in that light, then most would see why being atheist doesn't require a faith in not having a belief. Atheism isn't specific towards any particular god(s).It isn't a belief. I find it amusing that each individual theist for some odd reason will be offended if it's put to them that they are atheist as well towards other's perceived god(s) and then say something to the effect, "but you don't understand, my god is the real god, those others just believe in the wrong one"... Theists will argue, no matter the god they believe in, that an atheist somehow maintains a belief that is specific to each individual's god of not existing. I'd add it's said the atheist and agnostic, wouldn't exist if not for the beliefs of theist's, this is correct. Anyway, the following are some creatures, beings, gods, etc..that required belief, and do not require a belief to not believe in...from various cultures and regions: Minotaur, Re'em, Kholomodumo, Apollo, Dead Sea Apes, Centaur, Trenti, Hel, Haetae, Ōkubi, Golem, Polong... The following are from the U.K ..Lubber fiend, Joint-eater, Joan the Wad,(love you guys), and finally for a contemporary example from the U.S, although the Catholic church I'm sure shudders at the name.........(drumroll& cymbal clash) the nefarious Pope Lick Monster. There are numerous others, and I assert that in each instance the people who said or say "no, these creatures/beings are not real" were accused of having a belief they didn't exist.In retrospect, it's obvious they didn't , and by the same token you can't say that by lacking a belief in something that is found to be real, is a form of belief either.As an example: the Minotaur is found, archaeological skeletal evidence.That would only support the people who believed in them years ago(who are dead and gained nothing by the belief)....I understand the door I just opened,notice I've left it .I'm not adverse to discussing this.Any of it. To this day the Minotaur hasn't been discovered. Knossos is an actual place, but it doesn't make the Minotaur real. Understand that all of those previously mentioned myths or creatures of an earlier civilization,region or culture or even current ones,require faith to maintain as a belief,and in each instance, were or are supported by anecdotal accounts, previous written stories or oral traditions,and in some cases were centered around an actual city, country or structure, but no actual proofs, otherwise they wouldn't be in the list above.We don't have to maintain a belief that they don't exist, nor should we(mankind collectively).And most don't.I've never seen someone toting a sign declaring or espousing the point or benefits of reaquiring a new found belief in Apollo.I've no doubt some of them may still be believed in by a few.I must add that for contrast and understanding the human desire to suspect the unknown and the imagination it entails, sometimes people maintain a belief in the face of incontrovertible proof. Case in point.."flat earthers" Yet , god belief is seen as a separate issue, and is in reality no more deserving of maintaining a belief in by faith, than anything else that people have believed in (mythical creatures , monsters etc...) using faith to support, past or present. I should add that if any of those previous , current or future things that people have believed in or yet to believe in are found to be actual..they will not require one bit of belief, or faith to support a belief, to understand that they are in fact real. If that were to happen, I'd have no problem changing my lack of a belief in any of them to a position of knowing they are real, btw.No faith required. God(s) included. I've tried to be as descriptive as I can be in explaining why I don't consider an absence of belief in something...as a belief. There is no reason to suppose or think that there is a god, beyond anothers assertion, that there is. Why do people consider not having a belief in gods as a belief in itself? I edited to change font size, and add a different color to the text

Author:	trippostrophe [ Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
Because all that you wrote comes down to one thing-faith. We as humans have one true freedom which is our choice, what we as individuals decide to do with each moment as it comes and what arrives in those moments. Our only true power is our faith, what we believe in. That alone directs our thoughts, our actions, where our eyes go, where our hands and feet go, what we do in those moments when a choice is available. In that light, seems to me that in the truest sense of the word, there's no such thing as an athiest. If one chooses to not believe in a god, that non-entity becomes the reason for existence, and therefore, a god. All the thoughts and actions of the "non-believer" are directed towards, i.e the adoration of, what the individual perceives as the end-all. Seems interesting to me to see everybody serving something, whether they give a shit about it or not. The actions and reactions, from humble piety to adamant rebellion seem to all flow from one thing: the idea and thought of God and His existence.

Author:	Scar~ [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
trippostrophe wrote: Because all that you wrote comes down to one thing-faith. You mean regarding the people who believed in things that there was no proof or reason to believe in and used faith to support that belief. Perhaps you refer to something else , please elaborate. When someone walks up a set of stairs in their home or apt, there is no faith involved.I know for a fact the steps exist and no faith is needed to know they are there.I don't have to use belief or a faith in a belief to know they are there. When I'm not in front of those stairs, say on vacation 500 miles away, there is a trust involved that the steps are there. This is a type of trust based upon a previous knowledge that I have walked up the steps, I have seen others use those steps.I suppose a fire could occur and burn those steps away.Then the understanding that I have is only altered in the fact that something has happened to cause those steps to not be there , there is a reason for this and it didn't alter the fact...that they did exist. Additionally if you want to say I believed those steps were there within the little fire story, it won't be a belief when I see they aren't there.And I will not believe they are there anymore.Because they aren't. Those steps exist or existed and the "faith" that you refer to doesn't apply. Please read these links, it may help you in understanding the words faith and belief. Belief:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief Faith:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith I don't mean to be disrespectful. Knowing the words we use, and how to use them is crucial to understanding things.It also eliminates relying on beliefs or faith in many instances. Understand,certainty based on past experience or based in knowledge isn't belief or faith. trippostrophe wrote: We as humans have one true freedom which is our choice, what we as individuals decide to do with each moment as it comes and what arrives in those moments. That is your opinion. Using choice as a true freedom doesn't apply to a hostage bound and prevented from choosing to not be so. My opinion?: First,I think humans have several freedoms. I think our one of the true freedoms is to accumulate understanding or knowledge, and then apply that using our intellect, in relation to, quoting your words... "what we as individuals decide to do with each moment as it comes and what arrives in those moments." Example: After shooting a firearm and when finished, I remove the clip, ensure it is empty, and then I visually check the chamber and cycle the action twice to ensure there isn't a shell retained by the extractor(my brother had a faulty M1911 that retained a shell in this manner and it discharged, shooting him in the leg above the knee, passing again through the calf 4 holes) . I would assert that this accident had nothing to do with relying on faith.It was a malfunction.It would require faith to assume it would never happen again though.Wouldn't it? So...based upon information, I altered my 'moment by moment " actions and actually altered my previous routine concerning firearms.I don't use faith in this area.I used my knowledge and understanding to not rely purely on faith. I've seen people use faith for lots of things when they didn't have to.You wanna walk on ice?..chop a hole and see how thick it is. Or you could just have faith and run on out on the ice. Guess what I do? trippostrophe wrote: Our only true power is our faith, what we believe in. Once again an opinion.Opinions are fine. Belief in something for which there is no reason to do so, isn't power. People believe in lots of things. This doesn't make them real.I find that , for myself I'm best served in using the power of knowledge and avoid having a "faith in a belief" . A "faith in a belief", essentially says that you have a belief , that you cannot be sure is real. There is no proof to support or take that belief to a real tangible status,but you have faith it is. "He believed the ice was thick enough to support him...he had faith in it...it wasn't". That is a simplistic illustration concerning the ice. It becomes ridiculous when you try to reason or use belief supported by faith regarding intangible or ridiculous things...like: "He believed the marshmallow cloud was thick enough to support him...he had faith in it...it wasn't". trippostrophe wrote: That alone directs our thoughts, our actions, where our eyes go, where our hands and feet go, what we do in those moments when a choice is available. Once again that's your opinion... Do you verify that the street is safe before crossing? Or, do you look both ways and as you cross you verify it continues to be safe? If you do then you didn't rely on a belief supported by faith. Maybe you just see the crosswalk coming up and just step into street, believing you will be ok... I don't think you do trippostrophe wrote: In that light, seems to me that in the truest sense of the word, there's no such thing as an athiest. You are wrong.There are millions of atheist's When you say "truest" that implies you have a personal desire as to what it means..as in "It was the truest blue". *What is the truest blue?* There are quite a few blues to my right...I like the one I used, I'm not sure it's the truest blue though. This gives an accurate explanation or definition of what atheism is, and isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism trippostrophe wrote: If one chooses to not believe in a god, that non-entity becomes the reason for existence, and therefore, a god. Please explain how you reason this. It would be interesting if you could explain why you believe in god(s).Can you? trippostrophe wrote: All the thoughts and actions of the "non-believer" are directed towards, i.e the adoration of, what the individual perceives as the end-all. I'd ask for an explanation here as well. You'll notice in the first post and the reply to your past...I try to offer explanations for the statements I make...I can't read your mind. Explain how you arrived at this conclusion or belief. trippostrophe wrote: Seems interesting to me to see everybody serving something, whether they give a shit about it or not. I'd ask for an explanation again.Especially .. the word "Seems" implies numerous possibilities.Also "serving something" could refer to various concept's...and "whether they give a shit about it or not. " I guess refers to the "something" you spoke of. trippostrophe wrote: The actions and reactions, from humble piety to adamant rebellion seem to all flow from one thing: the idea and thought of God and His existence. I get that you maintain a faith in a belief in a god.If you can explain it to yourself and understand why you do based on actual proof, then really it isn't a belief nor does it require faith. I think you have to examine why you maintain a belief on god(s) in the first place.Using your explanations why humans use belief and faith in all parts of their life.Then you must believe in all of the gods simultaneously.You used a capitalized singular form for "god" , so I don't think you do. What you really addressed in this post was that you think people use faith for everything.It's pretty obvious we don't. Even without my long winded addition. Humans don't use faith for every aspect of their life.The kind of belief and faith that applies to god(s) is comprised of nothing but belief combined with faith.There is no proof for god(s) Which god were you referring to? My post was about all gods, even the ones I've never read about or heard of. I look forward to your response....I'm still going to ask, because I don't think for the reasons I gave above you answered the question. Why do people consider not having a belief in gods as a belief in itself?

Author:	trippostrophe [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
I did get off the track with my response-sorry. Now then, why do people that don't have a belief state it as a belief--well, I think we've entered an age where folks are feeling required to explain where they stand, where they plant their particular individual flag, so to speak. "What do you ascribe to?" "What is your affiliation?" I don't think there's ever been a time in history where so many dividing lines between different schools of thought are so prevalent. We've all seen the battle of ideologies and words between the party lines of politics as never before, social issues, economics, religion, etc. all have their camps and flags, and for those who feel the need to "belong" to a particular group of like minded individuals, they need to show the "proper" disposition and loyalty to whatever flag is waving. I also think that the prevailing trend of one group blaming the others for all the problems they see has something to do with it. Lao Tzu said it so eloquently: "When the country is in chaos, loyal ministers appear." I think a lot of us have encountered this when sitting in a group of people in a casual conversation and without fail, someone wants to test someone else on their beliefs about anything, to be able to put a convenient label on them so most of the subsequent conversations have a predetermined angle on which that person is regarded. I also believe that in this day and age, where so much information is so readily available, it's very easy for one to proclaim to the world exactly where they stand in whatever particular arena of thought they deem worthy. I also think that there is an inherent wish to be on the "winning team", the side that they perceive as the cure and not the disease. We want victory, we want to be right about what we believe in, and this seems to be the vehicle used to prove to ourselves as well as others that we are significant, not mere dust specks on a small planet in a huge universe. What we believe in as individuals does have a direct bearing in our actions, and there is an inherent pride in that, especially when facing someone in an opposite stance than our own. We can become severely short sighted by this pride, at times not wanting to admit any validity to the other side of the argument.

Author:	trippostrophe [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
On the personal questions-and no, I don't find them disrespectful. When it comes to faith and choice, what I intended to say, and yes, from an individual perspective, time and experience has shown me that people cling on to mindsets and ideas that run contrary to them are disregarded as irresponsible or even insane. (My own life has not been an exception to this.) Faith, to me, is believing in what can't be seen, touched, explained away or folded up and placed in my pocket. Abstract? Absolutely. I say that choice, i.e. our free will, is our only true freedom because all other freedoms, as in the accumulation of information, the ability to explore our world or others, or the ability to plant a garden are all physical attributes of being human in this world, and any of them can be curtailed or even taken away. Even if someone is placed in total isolation and every facet of their existence regulated by another, that individual still retains the free will to decide how to live within that environment. We bend by choosing it. We obey by choosing to. We defy by choosing to. We choose to accept our reality and live and grow within it to the best of our ability, or we choose not to and accept whatever consequence or reward awaits us. Either way, a choice is there. Granted, this is an extreme example, but the possibility exists. Faith in what we can't see because we aren't there yet is what pulls us forward. Why do I believe in God? Not because I'm delusional or someone guilted me into doing so, or because a Bible was forced down my throat, but partly because the thought has been something that has been with me literally since I can remember and mostly due to the fact that I had the temerity to place my pride in what I already knew aside and accept the POSSIBILITY of God being a reality rather than just an idea. The proof? Can you weigh or measure Spirit? Can you fully explain it? Oops. There's that faith thing again. Believing in what we can't see does more to inform us and expand our understanding than any pile of books could ever do. But can you keep the door open to the possibility, even if it fights with every rational fact that you've ever learned? Yes, I know the definition of atheism. My statement was not incorrect. I know there are literally millions of people who describe themselves as atheist. Thing is, whenever a person, through their free will, chooses this path, the question of God crossed their minds first. The idea of no god comes from the concept of God. Ergo, my statement. The fact that they chose not to believe in gods or God doesn't change the fact that He or they existed within their minds in the first place, before the choice was made. If you choose to believe that all humans are nothing more than a mass of meat and bone, then all subsequent thoughts and actions are filtered through this belief, and all that you do serves the purpose of proving this true to yourself, hence we all serve something larger than ourselves. Like Bob Dylan sang, "You gotta serve somebody", even if one chooses to remain ignorant of what that is. (Not giving a shit about it.) I hope this answers your questions.

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Author:	Scar~ [ Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
trippostrophe wrote: On the personal questions-and no, I don't find them disrespectful. When it comes to faith and choice, what I intended to say, and yes, from an individual perspective, time and experience has shown me that people cling on to mindsets and ideas that run contrary to them are disregarded as irresponsible or even insane. (My own life has not been an exception to this.) Faith, to me, is believing in what can't be seen, touched, explained away or folded up and placed in my pocket. Abstract? Absolutely. I say that choice, i.e. our free will, is our only true freedom because all other freedoms, as in the accumulation of information, the ability to explore our world or others, or the ability to plant a garden are all physical attributes of being human in this world, and any of them can be curtailed or even taken away. Even if someone is placed in total isolation and every facet of their existence regulated by another, that individual still retains the free will to decide how to live within that environment. We bend by choosing it. We obey by choosing to. We defy by choosing to. We choose to accept our reality and live and grow within it to the best of our ability, or we choose not to and accept whatever consequence or reward awaits us. Either way, a choice is there. Granted, this is an extreme example, but the possibility exists. Faith in what we can't see because we aren't there yet is what pulls us forward. Why do I believe in God? Not because I'm delusional or someone guilted me into doing so, or because a Bible was forced down my throat, but partly because the thought has been something that has been with me literally since I can remember and mostly due to the fact that I had the temerity to place my pride in what I already knew aside and accept the POSSIBILITY of God being a reality rather than just an idea. The proof? Can you weigh or measure Spirit? Can you fully explain it? Oops. There's that faith thing again. Believing in what we can't see does more to inform us and expand our understanding than any pile of books could ever do. But can you keep the door open to the possibility, even if it fights with every rational fact that you've ever learned? Yes, I know the definition of atheism. My statement was not incorrect. I know there are literally millions of people who describe themselves as atheist. Thing is, whenever a person, through their free will, chooses this path, the question of God crossed their minds first. The idea of no god comes from the concept of God. Ergo, my statement. The fact that they chose not to believe in gods or God doesn't change the fact that He or they existed within their minds in the first place, before the choice was made. If you choose to believe that all humans are nothing more than a mass of meat and bone, then all subsequent thoughts and actions are filtered through this belief, and all that you do serves the purpose of proving this true to yourself, hence we all serve something larger than ourselves. Like Bob Dylan sang, "You gotta serve somebody", even if one chooses to remain ignorant of what that is. (Not giving a shit about it.) The belief in a god or gods is learned. Your previous post and this one seem to be a justification for why you do believe in god(s). I see that you don't respond point by point.There is a general format expected to be followed. I could ramble on for a while in a vague way...I won't. trippostrophe wrote: I hope this answers your questions. You didn't.

Author:	trippostrophe [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
First off, allow me to make an apology. My first reactions to your posts came off a little arrogant and evasive to your question. You asked a very simple question that deserved a simple answer. Secondly, your inquiries admittedly got me thinking a lot about my own mental dynamics about the basis of my own beliefs that I profess to uphold. I'm no theologian or academic, I'm an artist by nature, an explorer and observer of life's movements and mankind's reactions to the world he creates. It's truly a wonderfully beautiful, chaotic dance to me and poetic in its music. Actions and reactions are there for me to be a witness to. You asked why people consider not having a belief in God or gods as a belief in itself. I think the answer leads to yet another question, namely why people feel the need to have a belief? Why do we as humans feel the need to have a creed of one kind or another to define our being? I think that a lot of it has to do with the simple fact that we are all witnesses to life's decay and change. We all see our works and the people in our lives all fall, die and return to the soil. Whatever we discover in our explorations always leads to yet another course of exploration. Theories and formulas are formed, tested and used until we bring them to their limits and find that they need re-evaluation and further testing. We are always explorers. Despite this, we still search for that one defining idea or expression that justifies our actions, whether it be religion, science, spirituality, or anything else we dream up. (This is why I stated that I believe that all of us serve something. We cannot wholly own our own actions on whatever path we choose. The path becomes laid out before us in our exploration.) I think that we also search for that affirmation that the course we have put our feet on is the correct one, and a great number of us hold onto that hope in blinded pride, disregarding all other paths of learning. That same pride is the spawning ground for every other argument between any two churches or any scientist and theologian. But, that is a topic that could literally fill up this and a thousand other boards. Why do we believe? Why do we want to? Do we all feel that something is missing, a vacancy within ourselves that we obviously feel a dire need to fill? That elusive missing link between our individual selves and the great unknown eternity? I can't speak for anyone else's reasons, but I choose to hold onto the words of Lao Tzu on this one-it's what's not there that makes us useful. That keeps me in the here and now, where it's all going on all at once.

Author:	Scar~ [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: No Belief is a Belief?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=skeptic-agenticity I have no doubt this explains at least some of it. http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/god.html This still yet more.

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