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| What If? https://forums.knot4prophet.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=256 |
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| Author: | trippostrophe [ Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | What If? |
I'm going to try to do something here. I've gone through the various threads about the Bible, verses, chapters, etc. and I would never try to change someone's direction when that individual is asking questions about the most personal of questions: Who is God? What is the truth of my existence? For those of you who have found a measure of peace with this question, all that is left for you is living with the answer that you have arrived at. I firmly believe that when anyone sets themselves on the path of finding this truth for themselves, all roads lead to the same place, the source of your question and answer. I've never been one to dissect chapter and verse looking for flaws from one book to another. The Old Testament is as variegated as the human mind itself. It is, quite literally, chock full of any and all inner and outer conflicts that any human can have or face. From kingdoms to tribes, lands and idols, there are thousands of conundrums within and without that the various characters often find themselves at odds with in this unfathomable pageant, all trying to serve what they understand within their own individual capacities. All too often, these stories and tales and the laws and lessons therein are read and understood in the most literal of meanings, and these meanings can be as varied as the person reading them. We've all seen what happens when one misguided person suddenly sees only themselves in scripture and mistakenly thinks that he's the one being written about and therefore has been chosen by the Divine to lead all others. David Koresh comes to mind as an example. David Jeffries. Look into any doomsday cult and you'll find some nutcase that thinks he has the direct phoneline to God's mind. If I believed half of the televagelists out there, I'd be scared shitless to leave the house. So many folks spending their days looking up at the skies waiting to see the flaming chariots and the four horsemen. What if the Old Testament is a descriptive of the human mind? What if each character and the conflicts they encounter were facets of our own understanding as we grow and learn to not only live with ourselves, but live in this world with all of its evolving changes? What if the Garden and the Tree of Knowledge is within our own imaginations(the one thing we have that makes us very different from all other life)? The serpent, our own doubt we have to deal with whenever we take another step in growing? Our feet in this garden, where we start, and our heads with the Prophets, where they looked forward in anticipation of what may come? In order to resolve this war of words that has been going on for far too long throughout human history, we have to think beyond the literal. We must use the imaginations we've been born with and look harder and deeper to find the resolutions to the same old conflicts that has divided people for so long. |
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| Author: | Scar~ [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What If? |
I'd like to say I agree that the point you raise is worth considering.It does in a broad sense highlight a section of humanity from a bewildered and primitive perspective.Numerous ancient stories, myth, and texts worldwide are valuable for that reason. I'll make a blanket statement here and say there are far better sources available from modern man. I've read the Bible a few times, the Apocrypha once, and most of the Pseudepigrapha, and where you may see a sort of psychological profile of man, for myself when considering that, it comes to mind that we have a far better understanding of the inner workings of the mind within today's stories , medical and psychological science's. Avoiding the cult like tendencies man will draw from religious text. I really don't see a way to utilize those sorts of religious books without zealots emerging from the pages. You're talking about a collection of books with origins in a downtrodden,bigoted/racist/misogynistic/warlike tribal society, and an outlook that embodies all the classic 'conspiracy" mindset's we see everywhere today, and since it comprises the predominant religion's in the world we shouldn't be surprised. The parable's contain tidbits of wisdom that you can find in all mythology and lore found in all cultures ,and it really doesn't carry any sort of unique status compared to any other book from long ago.It's not uncommon for mans nature to be highlighted in fiction. Works of non fiction too, obviously.Past or present. The problem is the majority of adherents see it's variation's as the divine word of a god, ie: the Torah, Bible, Quran, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, not as a collection of insight's solely, but as a imperative from a god who is gonna be pissed if they(adherents) don't spread it.The big 4 Abrahamic collective:Christianity, Islam...OK, BaHai isn't real big..but Dan Seals from Seals&Croft was a member. Judaism is pretty small too. Let's take that classic and well reasoned Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" , good. Good stuff. Psychologically sound. We shouldn't kill, allowing for the circumstance of "he tried to kill me first"~. We happen to be in that sort of situation now in the middle east... Anyway, in Deuteronomy 21:18,19,20,21...you've got this: 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. I'm glad I didn't grow up there. The psychological message or lesson might be exactly what it says , listen to your parents or they'll ask others to stone you to death, and you'll be an example for future disobedient generations to come... Maybe its a stealthy way of admonishing parents that we should expect and allow for "Junior" to grow and develop. It could show that you can't make anyone not do something if they are determined to do it, short of getting a mob to kill them, in turn spreading the guilt around. Others I'm sure might see it differently. At any rate it doesn't reflect the sound advice in that Commandment.I'm sure not killing people is better for the psyche. I'm not attempting to point out a contradiction,and I do get what you imply concerning the collection of stories illustrating mans many ways .I'm not saying people can't have valid and personal insights into the nature of mankind, either by experience or in story. I am saying I think we have better methods and motivations today in the way we approach ourselves regarding mental health and society ,and improving that. I'm not inclined to think a better way is based in the dreams of Prophets,musings of goat herders,a log of a Captain of a massive boat, or the ramblings of a former fisherman who became a carpenter, et al . Here's a "what if?" What if the Bible was actually a collection of stories from various periods within mans history and cultures,(largely proven to be so) that are meant to show the futility and folly of man in relation to the length's he will go in order to please a god, revealing that the "god(s)" man tries to appease and placate are no more mentally stable than we are, and in reality created by ...man? A story intended to show ourselves what we will do in the name of a god, and for a god. A god never pleased, especially by a creature not prone to pleasing even himself, or others. The culmination of the "folly of gods" being the Jesus story, in which that character essentially said we were on our own, no one needed to be told what was "good" or "bad".No more animal sacrifice, etc..With that final lesson being that we need to just get on with it.The final implication that if we could just get along without the prod of a god at our back and do it for each other, then we'll achieve that "perfect world"....that the god didn't get right in the first place.In a couple of tries.Now we wait for the third...The irony seems apparent, to me anyway. In the 2000 years since, nothing's been added.Go figure. It'd be a great story to add to mans history as a lesson for all the rest of the years of humans to take note of concerning gods.Albeit poorly written. Just a thought... Additionally... I in no way think that is what the biblical story is. Personally, I think the Bible is a crock.I don't use it for anything except in instances such as this. I do think it is a book that is entitled to be along side such stories as the Hindu Rigveda, , The Epic of Gilgamesh, or from the Bronze age in 2600 B.C, Instructions of Shuruppak : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_of_Shuruppak , http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section5/tr561.htm |
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| Author: | trippostrophe [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What If? |
OK. I've been wanting to post a reply for a few days now, but my life has been in a somewhat gentle upheaval here lately. Let's see if I can get me thoughts straight for this, as I am trying to communicate something that is very real for me. One of the reasons I do read the Bible in the context that I've stated is that it works for me in a way that is lost among analytical journals. It's even lost in the rare times that I attend a church. I've always seen, since I was a small kid, shut doors, dark corners and things hidden from view and scrutiny whenever I sit on a pew. Some church figure always seems to be standing in front of the door he wants others to walk through. People are asked to give themselves over to a higher purpose, yet at the same time they have to contend with the limited scope of the man. Like I stated earlier, this is about the mind, so I hope my words can describe this abstraction legibly. I can't speak for others, but when the day came that I faced this question and wondering of God, I literally had to make some room in my head for it, move some old shit out of the way and clean up the ol' attic, so to speak. I wasn't sure what I was making room for, but it seemed like the place to start. Found some stuff I thought I'd gotten rid of, stuff that I thought I'd lost, etc. Throughout the growing process of living and learning, ideas once held sacred can become moot, and vice-versa. Within these ideas come the dynamics of behavior, how we treat ourselves and others. Habits are formed around these beliefs, and as long as they continue to work, they're used. When any of us are moved into a new environment, whether it be a school, club, the military or whatever, we find ourselves in an arena that a larger purpose is served rather than just our own personal wish. Personal wants are also served, but the bigger picture is always at the forefront. In the process of becoming acclimated to the environment, our thought processes become attuned to that service. We build in our minds on a new dynamic of construction and new habits. Here's what I'm getting at-as the Deuteronomy citing goes, picture the city as that new construct with its own particular building codes and ethos. The mother and father as core beliefs within this city, the elders as the laws and tried-and-true methods of success, the son as an idea that runs contrary to the ambition, the bad habit that pops up and interferes with the progress of the individual. The son's spirit is proud, refusing to admit his responsibility towards the whole, much like a recurring bad habit can kick progress in the nuts when anyone is trying to grow beyond where they were. The stones as symbols of the truths of this, the proof, that this "son" is more concerned with his solitary value than his "communal" one. This is the "evil" that is cast out, the contrary belief that impedes growth. Religious thinking and adherence is certainly stained with the guilt, tears and blood of many people, and I think this is because many people don't look at the reason they go searching for God in the first place. They look for reward and an idea of spiritual gold, and if they go to that mirror in that frame of mind, well, they only serve their own selfish desire to appear to walk on ground that somehow doesn't have any dirt. The idea that one religion can contain God and all others can't truly goes against the core beliefs of any of those one religions. I thinks some adherents got into whatever school they hold onto so they could have someone else do their thinking for them. Anyway, I enjoyed the posts, Scar. Keep 'em coming. |
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